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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie, from wellnessmama.com. And this episode is all about ADHD, anxiety, and “Don’t Tell Me to Relax.” I’m here with Kelly Rompel, who is a pharmacist and functional medicine consultant, specializing in the natural management of ADHD, and anxiety. She’s the Author of “Don’t Tell Me to Relax”, Host of the Rebel Whitecoat Podcast, and Founder of Wild Roots Wellness. And she was a pharmacist, and then came into a holistic approach as she worked through healing her own struggles with focus and anxiety. And then she went on to earn additional health coaching and epigenetic certifications through IIN, Apeiron Academy, and The Almond Brain Clinics. And she now focuses on helping her clients uncover the root causes contributing to their difficulty with focus or anxiety. And in this episode, we go deep on that, the common root causes she sees for these things, the dopamine connection and why ADHD is not just a dopamine deficiency, as we’re often told.
We talk about common gut issues and how they present in the brain and body. We talk about other factors that contribute to these issues that people don’t always realize. Why ADHD and anxiety often go hand in hand. We talk about the vitamin and mineral deficiencies that often play a role, and why we see these issues together. We talk about the importance of continually asking why, instead of just treating the symptom. We talk about the ice baths, dopamine production connection, the importance of protein consumption for producing neurotransmitters. A tip for just changing up your caffeine consumption timing that can make a big difference. We talk about underlying infections that can be a source of stress on the body. And so much more. So, let’s join Kelly. Kelly, welcome. Thanks for being here.
Kelly: Thank you for having me. It’s an honor. I appreciate it.
Katie: I’m very excited to chat with you, and we’re going to get to go deep on ADHD and anxiety and a bunch of other things as well. Before we do, I have a note from your bio that you also have a house plant addiction, and so I would love to compare notes on what kind and how many.
Kelly: Oh my gosh, they’re all over the place. Well, our house has a ton of windows. I’m a lover of natural light. So I have them all over. I mean, you name it. I think aloes are my favorite. So I’ve got a ridiculous amount of aloes, and they’re huge, and they’re beautiful. But, I mean, I’ve got tons of different kinds. And to be very honest, I’m not well-versed on the names of them. I just like the way they look. That’s how I choose them.
Katie: Me too. My recent thing has been building plant walls where I just, like, salvaged some branches from outside and turned them into hanging plant walls. And I think I have, like, three now in my house. It’s getting a little excessive, but I’m not complaining at all.
Kelly: I know. I love it. It’s, like, once a week, I go and water everything. And I’m, like, this is becoming, like, kind of a task, you know. It takes quite a while, but I love it.
Katie: Oh, that’s awesome. It’s definitely something we have in common. And I’m really excited to delve into your work today too because I think your expertise is especially relevant to a lot of the people listening. So, to start off kind of just with some background, maybe kind of walk us through, because, from my understanding, you used to be in the pharmacy space, and now you’re in functional medicine, and that’s a little bit of a shift. So what was the impetus for that shift?
Kelly: Yeah, quite the shift. So, gosh. I found a love for natural medicine in a holistic approach just based off my own struggles with my health. I think that’s how a lot of us kind of start wanting to help people in a bigger way. So I think it all started when I was younger. I had a high-functioning anxiety. I always got super overwhelmed very easily, very sensitive child. And looking back, I was frustrated a lot because I had a hard time with focus. I always felt like I had to try extra hard in school, but I had a lot of that high-functioning anxiety, right? So that would push me. So I did get okay grades. And I always tried really hard, and I did make it into pharmacy school. But I think everything kinda came to a head in college.
I was probably in my last year to a pharmacy school, and I found myself in the doctor’s office. And they’re like, “You need a colonoscopy. You’ve got anxiety. You’ve got depression. We’ve got to figure out what’s going on with your gut health.” And not once during any of those conversations with multiple doctors did anybody ask me what my lifestyle was like, what my diet was like, and even, like, my relationships, my spiritual. Nobody asked me any questions. They just scheduled me for more appointments and gave me more meds. And so, if they would have asked me, I would have told them I was eating ramen noodles constantly, I was drinking rum and cokes. I was in toxic relationships. I was stressed out. I was not sleeping. And looking back, I wish somebody would have asked me more questions.
So pretty embarrassing, but I found myself getting a colonoscopy, actually, next to my dad. I told my mom, I was like, “I need a colonoscopy.” She’s like, “Oh, well, I’ll just set your dad up for one too. He’s due.” And I’m like, “You gotta be kidding me.” So I’m getting prepped next to my dad at the age of 22. I’m like, “This is just so wrong.” So, anyways, I leave there with really no answers, just four prescription meds with a diagnosis of anxiety, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, ulcers, and so they sent me on my way.
So I was behind the pharmacy counter working, and it kinda just hit me one day. Super frustrated, I wasn’t feeling any better, I had tons of side effects from the meds that I was on, and I was becoming a part of that vicious cycle that I was seeing every single day behind the pharmacy counter. And I saw people all the time come in for…they’d give me a prescription, they came back the next month, higher dose, more side effects, they get another med to cover those side effects, and just I was in it. I was in that same vicious cycle. And so it hit me.
My frustration sent me into more research for natural medicine. And I finally started to find a holistic approach that worked for me, really started looking into my nutrition, dealt with maybe some toxic relationship stuff that I was going through at the time, really cleaned up my diet, and got back on to better health for myself, and quickly became obsessed with helping other people do the same. So that’s kind of what landed me from the pharmacy space to functional medicine, and it was a slow progression, honestly, over time of me kind of leaving pharmacy slowly and building up my clientele. And now I’m full-time in the functional medicine space.
Katie: I love that, and that seems to be a very common story, that’s mine as well, of, like, having our own health struggles, leading us into answers, and then having the desire to help other people as well to, hopefully, shorten that curve for others. And it’s definitely no secret that things like anxiety and depression and ADHD, along with every other chronic health condition, are all on the rise right now. And so I’d love to kind of dissect some of the reasons that you think that’s the case and maybe also start to talk about the root cause approach, which I know is sort of foundational to the work that you do. Because I love that you mentioned the gut connection there as well, and I would guess this is maybe one of them. But sadly, it seems like, in the mainstream medicine world at least, we’re not seeing the jump to the root cause approach. We’re still seeing the symptom-based treatment approach. So, yeah, maybe walk us through what are you seeing as some of the root causes and foundational issues going on here.
Kelly: Yeah, great question. So, for all of my clients, I run a combination of advanced functional lab testing and genetics. So what I’m looking for are underlying root causes that are contributing to symptoms. I fully respect that ADHD can have a genetic component, but running the labs allows me to see other things that are worsening symptoms, like gut health involvement, like you mentioned. Candida overgrowth is a big one. Candida really gives off these toxins and cause a lot of brain fog, difficulty with focus. So Candida is a huge one. Not only that, but it causes a lot of malabsorption, which can lead to vitamin and mineral deficiencies, which also are going to impact ADHD. Because if we’re vitamin and mineral deficient, we are not able to produce dopamine.
And so, you know, we’re taught that ADHD is just a dopamine deficiency, and that’s one thing too that I want people to realize. That’s not the full story. Everyone says it’s dopamine deficiency and it’s genetics. And there’s so much more under the surface, with vitamin and mineral deficiencies and Candida. Even omega fatty acid imbalances are involved there as well. Heavy metal toxicities, that’s another one. So I look for a lot of these different things on the labs, and we start there and really getting into gut health. Of course, we want to know if you’re vitamin and mineral deficient, but that’s not the full story for me. That’s not a good enough answer. I want to know why. Because a lot of times, it’s not just diet.
It’s not good enough to say, “Okay, you’re deficient because of diet alone.” Why? Do you have maldigestion? Do you have malabsorption? Do you have Candida overgrowth, bacterial overgrowth? What is going on, and why is there so much inflammation? That’s what I want to know so we’re making correct the underlying things that are contributing to your symptoms.
Katie: That makes sense. And I would guess this is a much more intensive and comprehensive protocol and approach than someone would get if they’re just running one of these things or running labs in isolation and then sort of, like, spot-treating with a medication. But it makes sense. I would guess most people listening are familiar with the idea that so much of what happens in our brain originates in the gut, and thankfully, the gut-brain connection has been well-talked about recently. But can you give examples of maybe some common things you see in the gut and how they may present in the body or in the brain in various ways?
Kelly: Yes. So Candida overgrowth, I’ll kinda go back to that since it’s so prevalent. I see that in a large percentage of my clients, and that presents as a lot of sugar cravings, brain fog, anxiety, trouble with focus, and it actually affects the methylation process in your body too, which is affecting your neurotransmitter production and balance. So that’s a really great place to start is with Candida and bacterial overgrowth. So that’s a big one.
I would say that’s the best place to start because I can give you…I tell my clients all the time, “Of course, I can see your deficiencies, and I can throw you on a bunch of supplements and tell you to eat better. But if you’ve got an underlying gut issue with malabsorption or a lack of digestive enzymes even if you’re not breaking down protein and absorbing that appropriately, protein is a building block of dopamine, so I need to figure out underlying the surface first what is causing your malabsorption or your maldigestion, and that’s what we focus on first.” And a lot of times, that’s an imbalance of the gut, whether Candida or bacterial overgrowth or even parasites. Parasites can play a role as well and cause a lot of anxiety and brain fog.
Katie: And I’m curious, like, if people are able to pinpoint this, which is awesome, because, like I said, a lot of times, they’re not even pinpointing the root cause, to begin with. I know that there are ways to resolve all of these things, but what’s that curve look like? Was it typically…like, do patients start to see results pretty quickly, or is this a longer curve because we’re dealing with gut issues?
Kelly: Yeah. Everyone’s different, but, yeah, gut issues…I mean, the gut does not become inflamed overnight, and just as it takes the same, you know, to heal it, it’s not an overnight thing. And so I always tell clients, like, “We got to be patient. We start with what we see on labs. Do we see Candida/bacterial overgrowth? Let’s start there and work on more of a whole-food diet as well, cutting out food sensitivities, as that could be contributing as well, and really watching toxin overload.” That’s a big one that’s a lot of times not considered in Western medicine is heavy metal toxin overload and what that can do as well. Toxins and Candida and yeasts are best friends in the gut. And so dealing with the gut health is just the best place to start, in my opinion.
Katie: And are there other things happening sometimes that are contributing to, like, ADHD and anxiety symptoms that people may not even realize outside of some of these connections we’ve already talked about?
Kelly: Yes. So I think we have to also look at trauma. You know, I’m not a specialist with trauma, but trauma, we do have to consider that as impacting our ADHD and anxiety. Well, and I say ADHD and anxiety because they often go hand in hand. It’s very rare that I work with a client that doesn’t have a combination of the both, and that makes sense on a biological level. But, yeah, trauma, that’s another thing. Heavy metals, like I said, gosh, high-functioning anxiety, that’s all going to contribute.
I’m trying to think of what else. Oh, food dyes and additives, that’s another big one that people tend to not realize is that we’ve got so many food dyes and additives and sweeteners and artificial flavors added to our foods. And that can cause ADHD symptoms as well. Actually, a lot of my clients have genetics that make them more prone to having issues with food additives, which is super interesting. So that’s another reason I like to run genetics on clients too.
Katie: Yeah. I’m so excited that we live in a time where we actually have access to this data and can combine the genetics side with labs and kind of watch what’s happening in real-time, which is another reason I also love the functional medicine approach so much, because it’s actually taking into account all the things we now have the ability to measure and look at. You mentioned ADHD and anxiety often go hand in hand. Can you explain more about why this is, why we often see them together?
Kelly: Yeah. A lot of the same vitamin and mineral deficiencies play a role with both, exacerbating the symptoms of both. So if we’re deficient on things like magnesium, B vitamins, zinc, gosh, vitamin D, that’s another one, iron, all of these, when you’re low on those, it can all contribute to ADHD and anxiety symptoms. So, again, we need these vitamins and minerals in order to produce our neurotransmitters like dopamine to keep us focused or serotonin to keep us calm and happy or GABA to keep us…you know, that’s a natural relaxant. And so, if we’re low on these vitamins and minerals, we are going to be deficient in some of these neurotransmitters, and they’re all connected because it’s a lot of the same vitamin and mineral deficiencies that can cause worsening symptoms of ADHD and anxiety and also the gut health stuff too. So the Candida as well, the overgrowth of that, bacterial overgrowth, that’s releasing neurotoxins that mimics ADHD and brain fog and anxiety. So a lot of this stuff goes hand in hand, and that’s why a lot of people present with a combination of ADHD and anxiety and even gut health issues, like myself. I call it the trifecta, those three together I see quite often.
Katie: Yeah. It makes sense that so much of that would be rooted in the gut. It’s also definitely no secret that ADHD is on the rise in both kids and adults. I hear from a lot of people who have children who have received that diagnosis and also a whole lot of people who received that diagnosis as an adult and never knew they had it as a child. In fact, I had this experience a couple of years ago where I got a brain scan done because I had TBIs in the past, and one of the questions they asked me was, you know, “Has your ADHD ever been a problem?” And I was like, “Well, that’s actually the first I’ve heard of it, so no.” But it was really fascinating to see that, and we’re able to…now my brain scans don’t show any of the markers of ADHD, but I thought that was really interesting because, you know, there’s a lot of debate. Is this because we’re testing more and then testing better or because there’s more awareness, or is it because, like you mentioned, we’ve seen drastic changes in our food supply and there’s a lot more things that are irritating to the gut and what we encounter on a daily basis? But what’s your take on that? Or is it both?
Kelly: Gosh. I think both. I do think that we have better testing available now, and, gosh, it sounds so silly to say, but social media and TikTok has brought so much awareness around this. And also, I think there’s such stereotypes around what ADHD, you know, “looks like.” And when we think of ADHD, oftentimes, we think of the stereotypical hyper young boy in school who can’t focus. We don’t think that ADHD can often look like overstimulation from hearing and feeling and seeing too much of everything. I often deal with this. I can get overstimulated, very sensitive. We have a harder time regulating our emotions. We get easily overwhelmed. We get sensory overload. We’re sensitive. And this can look different for everybody. So I do think it sometimes gets missed, but we do have the power of social media and more awareness around it and better testing.
So I think it’s a combination of both. I just want people to realize that they don’t have to just take their ADHD diagnosis and take that label and think that medicine and genetics is the only thing involved, or you know, a need for medicine rather. So I would love for people to look further and ask more questions, you know, why. Why do I have these symptoms? Why am I developing it now as an adult? Or why did I get diagnosed so young? Ask more questions why, let’s dig deeper, and that’s why functional labs and genetics are so important.
Katie: Yeah. That’s a recurring theme for me in health and in life, in general, is just keep asking why until you actually get to the first principles of what’s going on. And as exhausting as it is as a mom, some days, I even encourage my kids, “Always ask why and ask me why until you get to the actual answer.” But that lines up with a really fascinating study that I believe came out in July of this year that all the headlines were talking about, you know, depression and anxiety not caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain or the serotonin issue is just relative to the brain that we always thought, which brings into question, are medications that just look at that actually effective in the long term. And I was really glad to see that kind of brought to the forefront of the media and people actually starting to talk about this.
But I’m really curious, your take, with your background in pharmacy as well, I’m sure you’re very well-versed in those medications and how they work, and you already explained how it’s often much more root cause thing than just something treatable via a single medication. But what was your take on that idea that depression and anxiety are not just chemical imbalances in the brain?
Kelly: I was so happy when that study came out just because I think it gives more awareness and more answers to people who are frustrated in the fact that it’s like, “Well, why? Why do I have this anxiety or depression? And why is a med my only answer?” So, yes, I love that that study came out. And I agree in the fact that not all of this is just “chemical imbalance.” I don’t think that we have a deficiency of medication. I’m not saying medication…I’m not against medication, by any means. I mean, I’m a pharmacist. I realize that it’s life-saving a lot of times for a lot of people, and that’s fantastic. But some people don’t agree with medication. They don’t tolerate it. They’ve got terrible side effects.
And so, to go back to the chemical imbalance thing, yes, I do think that chemical imbalances can play a role, but I’m more concerned as to why. Again, it goes back to why. Is there something in my life that I need that I’m not getting? Am I too stressed? Am I vitamin and mineral deficient? Am I eating foods that I shouldn’t be eating, or am I in, you know, a traumatic situation or a toxic relationship, or have I been through traumas in the past that are altering the way my brain is working? It’s just more about looking at all these other reasons why. I don’t think blaming it on just a chemical imbalance is appropriate.
Katie: Yeah. And I think that’s a very important perspective on this too. It seems like they very much can be, especially maybe in the short term, a both/and approach, that it’s not an either-or, this is always bad or this is always bad, so much as, if those medications are needed, it would seem like they would also be more effective when combined when looking at diet and lifestyle and a more holistic view. And I would even add things to the list of, like, light exposure and what we know about that in circadian biology and sleep and how pivotal that is for neurotransmitters and so much more, and you know, diet, just to make sure we’re not actually ingesting things that are making the problem worse. Even if you do go the medication route, I would guess those things also will help you have better results and maybe remove the need for medication eventually.
Like, for me, I haven’t been on any medication for any of these specific conditions, but I was for several years for my thyroid. And there was a point where I did need thyroid hormones to help my body get back into balance, but when I addressed the underlying issues, I was able to not need that anymore. Do you see kind of the same thing with ADHD and anxiety patients?
Kelly: Yes, exactly. And oftentimes, a lot of people, when clients come to me, they are on medications. They want to get off of them. That’s their goal. Or they want to stay on medications and maybe just manage their symptoms a little bit better. And so the goal isn’t always to go natural, but that’s oftentimes why clients come to me. But, yeah, combining things like increasing protein intake, working on correcting and healing the underlying gut health issues, and avoiding the food dyes and food additives. Meditating. Meditating is huge.
These are all things that we can do in addition to the medication that eventually might be able to get off meds with all these additions of lifestyle things, like using ice baths. I know this is kind of trending right now, and it’s kind of getting…you know, people are picking up on it, it’s gaining popularity, but it does help with dopamine production. So I’ve seen people that have done nothing else besides just adding ice baths, and that’s been enough for them to take a more natural approach and get off medications eventually. There’s a lot of things that you can do as far as, like, adding in supplementation as well, using music therapy, and meditation, like I mentioned. So lots of lifestyle things that you can use in addition to taking a natural approach, yeah.
Katie: And also, I love that you brought up in the past the trauma connection as well, and I know that’s not within the scope of what we’re going to cover today. But for anyone who is aware of something like that in their life, I also second your recommendation to find whatever resources you need to delve into that because, at least for me, personally, that was actually the most pivotal thing I did for my physical health, and it wasn’t something I thought about doing for a long time because I just didn’t understand how much those things are intricately connected.
You also mentioned protein intake, and I would love to go a little deeper on this because I think this is an important message for women on so many levels, including things like lean muscle mass maintenance as we age and how that correlates to longevity, but I know there’s also a gut and neurotransmitter connection, and it comes into play here as well. So can you give us the sort of reasons from the work that you do on why protein consumption is important?
Kelly: Yeah, yeah. Protein contains amino acids that are the building blocks of dopamine, and so just for that reason alone, it’s really important to get enough protein in our diet. But, yeah, you mentioned lean muscle mass. And, gosh, I just was speaking with a client earlier today, and we were talking about insulin resistance. And as we age and how we lose muscle mass, and that’s, like, the fountain of youth, right? And so we were talking about how we’ve got to get her back to lifting weights a few times a week. And just what it does for our metabolism and our insulin sensitivity, it’s just really important. So, yes, protein, as far as the amino acid profile for building dopamine, is super important, but also, you know, for building that lean muscle mass as well.
And I also like to make sure people know that to eat a balanced diet…I’m gonna go into caffeine for a second because people hate when I do this, but I have to. I’m just gonna kinda veer off here, but hear me out. Protein, I always like to make sure people get protein in the morning, especially with ADHD, so they can make dopamine for their day. Also, exercising first thing in the morning, super important for dopamine production throughout the day. But one thing I work with women a lot, and it has not a whole lot to do with ADHD, but a lot of women are drinking caffeine on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. And a lot of times, we don’t have an appetite first thing in the morning. They’re drinking the caffeine on an empty stomach. It’s making their cortisol go through the roof, they’re inflamed, and it’s making them have hormone imbalances as well.
And so I bring it up because it goes hand in hand with what I see on the labs, which is one other thing. But really making sure that we are exercising and lifting weights is really, really helpful, and as well as protein intake. Sorry, I know I went a bunch of different directions there, but I wanted to mention the caffeine on an empty stomach because it does cause a lot of cortisol release and blood sugar imbalances and, you know, insulin resistance and inflammation over time. So just another thing I see on the lab that I just wanna throw out there.
Katie: Yeah. I love that you brought that up. And I think this is super important and impactful because I think anytime we can make a change that is just related to maybe the timing of doing certain things without having to remove certain behaviors or just, you know, mix up the order of things to get better results, there tends to be higher compliance because we’re not asking people to remove something that they love, like coffee. But if you can just switch the method by which you’re doing that, and I know I’ve seen this play out for me, like I said, not related to anxiety but related to just physical health and thyroid health, is when I started really prioritizing that morning sunlight, which also ties into the cortisol patterns you mentioned.
And then delaying my caffeine intake, which I know Andrew Huberman has made really popular lately, and I’m so glad he’s doing this, but if we can just delay caffeine consumption for 90 or 120 minutes, that changes how it’s interacting with adenosine and really makes an impact in our, also, wakefulness later in the day and our sleep at night. So my normal pattern is get up and get in the sunlight, drink water with minerals in it, get protein for breakfast, and then drink caffeine. And so I haven’t changed what I’m actually doing, I just changed the order of it, and it’s made a big difference in my energy levels. And I would guess someone maybe who is already struggling with dopamine issues would see probably an even bigger result from that.
Kelly: Yes. I love that. And I do similar. So I was big for a while on drinking caffeinated pre-workout. I would hit the gym. I love that feeling of, you know, that high-energy feeling. I loved it. But I started realizing, over time, it was really, really causing a lot more anxiety. It was starting to cause some hormone imbalances. And so I had to get rid of the caffeine. Plus, I saw on my genetic testing that I’m a slow metabolizer with caffeine. So what I was drinking in the morning was sticking with me at night, and that was slowing…it was affecting my sleep a whole lot. And I love how you brought up sleep because that plays a huge role with ADHD too. The following day…everyone knows, if you don’t sleep well at night, the next day, focus is way worse.
And so I had to give up caffeine, and I noticed such a positive shift when I did that. And instead, I drink a morning smoothie now. Instead of doing my pre-workout, I drink my morning smoothie first. And I can still have caffeine. You know, I like matcha. I kinda go lower on the caffeine scale. I don’t do, you know, the crazy pre-workout anymore, but I like to have my morning smoothie, and you know, I like to bring in a balanced meal, especially first thing in the morning, lots of proteins. So I do a scoop of protein powder. I do Greek yogurt for extra protein, some chia seeds for iron and healthy fats, half of an avocado for healthy fats, fruit, almond butter. So not low calorie but balanced. And then, after that, if I want to have some caffeine, I can, but I’ve got some good protein on board and some healthy fats and carbs and a balanced meal to where that doesn’t spike my cortisol so bad and cause additional anxiety.
Katie: Yeah. I do something very similar. I’m a big fan of smoothie in the morning, especially because it’s harder for me to eat a big volume of food in the morning and chew that much when I’m still waking up. So I love hitting… I feel like I have experimented to find out I feel great when I can hit, like, 50 grams of protein in the morning, which I know is a big number for a lot of people, and that’s personal to me. So that might not convert for everyone, but I notice a big difference when I get enough calories and enough protein first thing in the morning, and it just is much more doable when I can drink it versus chew it first thing in the morning like that.
Kelly: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, I do much better with a smoothie, something simple in the morning. A heavy meal doesn’t agree with me either and doesn’t agree with a lot of my clients, and I hear that quite a bit. So I try to get them on some kind of smoothie, a balanced smoothie, and that seems to really help with focus. It’s helped even my kids. My eight-year-old daughter, I was getting, you know, messages sent home that, you know, she’s not focused and she’s having a hard time focusing in class. And just imagine, this is what I do for a living, and so it crushed me. I was like, “Oh my gosh.”
So we had to switch up what she was eating for breakfast and switch up her supplements. And just the breakfast alone, I mean, you get into a habit. In the morning, it’s busy. I got three young kids. It’s busy, like, “Get a bowl of cereal. Let’s get out the door.” Well, it was just carbs for her, and that wasn’t sticking with her. There wasn’t enough protein in the morning, and so she was having issues with focus. I switched her to that smoothie that I was just talking about, and more supplements in the morning made a world of difference. Her teacher got back with me a couple of, like, two weeks later, she’s like a different kid. So sometimes it’s just tweaking of our protein intake and our supplementation can make a world of difference.
Katie: Absolutely, yeah. And that’s, I think, a common tip that I give to moms as well is if your kids are showing with any of those issues or sleep issues, see if you can get more protein earlier in the day because food is also a signaling mechanism for our circadian biology, you know, like food and light are both very important. And so, if you can optimize those in kids, they see result, I feel like, even faster than adults typically do when you get those things dialed in. Are there any other tips specific to women and hormones that you see as commonly helpful in people that you work with?
Kelly: Women and their hormones, caffeine is such a big one, and stress. Stress and our hormones. So when it comes to us, I mean, just the world we live in nowadays, we’re all stressed, especially it’s a busy time of year right now too. And we’ve got to remember, when we’re stressed, our bodies prioritize cortisol and dealing with our stressful situation over anything else. And so take for example, like, caffeine on empty stomach, that spikes cortisol, right? And so your body goes into fight or flight, and it’s prioritizing… It doesn’t realize you’re just drinking caffeine. It thinks that, like, there’s an emergency. So our body is prioritizing, you know, releasing cortisol and dealing with this emergency. Our bodies aren’t thinking about producing sex hormones. They’re not thinking about digesting right now. They’re thinking about surviving.
And so I often remind women, “We’ve got to get our stress down. I know it’s easier said than done, but when you’re stressed down and producing all this cortisol, your body is focusing on that and not everything else. And that can cause a lot of hormone imbalance down the line.” So, you know, bringing in meditation, doing whatever it is that you need, that’s self-care to you. For me, I love walking. I love meditating. I love journaling. I love listening to music. These are just the things that I love that bring me peace. And I try to bring in little moments of peace throughout my day, whether I need a little dance break, whether I need to walk on my treadmill in the middle of the day, whatever I need, sit down and journal, to kind of give me that peace and meditate, whatever, and that really helps, you know, my anxiety as well. And you know, to distress.
Katie: Yeah. And you brought up such an important point, which is that we all know that stress is becoming increasingly problematic, we know this is epidemic in our society, but stress is not just mental stress that we feel and identify as stress from our body’s perspective. Stress can be like we mentioned with trauma. You might have underlying trauma that you’re not acutely aware of but that’s causing you to operate in a more sympathetic nervous system state. Or you mentioned caffeine can be perceived as stress in your body even if your perception of it is that you feel great when you have caffeine because it makes you feel better. Or one thing I identified for me, personally, was undereating for so many years because of my thyroid, and trying to lose weight was actually creating a lot of stress on my body and really getting a focus of nourishing myself. The protein that we talked about, and, like, really hyper-focusing on how can I maximize nutrient density in the volume of food I’m eating instead of worrying about calories and macros but just, like, sending that safety mechanism to my body of, “You’re not starving. We have access to enough nutrients, not just food but nutrients.” And then optimizing those light and caffeine and sleep things really made a huge difference on my hormones over time.
Kelly: Yeah, exactly. And I love that you brought up physical stress because one thing I didn’t mention was the underlying infection and how that can bring additional stress and inflammation on our body. And again, our body is more worried about prioritizing that. So I see that a lot with labs and Candida overgrowth. I mean, tons of people are walking around with underlying Candida infection, they don’t even realize it. I mean, from just antibiotic use, standard American diet, alcohol intake, and heavy metal overload, all these things are going to contribute to Candida overgrowth. And so, when you’ve got an underlying infection, or say it’s parasites, your body, again, is prioritizing and worrying about that. And we just get overloaded. Our immune systems are overloaded, and we can get sick more often, more inflamed, and that can lead to other diseases, cancers, autoimmune, a lot of other stuff down the line.
Katie: That makes sense.
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I also know, often, medications and/or stimulants, in general, as a category, are recommended for people, especially those with ADHD, and these are now even being given to children in what, to me, without a background in pharmacy, seems like kind of alarming doses. I’m curious to your take on that and understanding around, is it possible for people who have anxiety or depression or ADHD to work through that and to function without stimulants of whatever source we’re talking about?
Kelly: Yeah. It’s absolutely possible. I do it every single day with my clients. I’ve had clients on stimulants for 10, 15 years and were able to get off of them. And I guess it is alarming to me that kids are being put on stimulants. And I do understand as a parent, gosh, I have empathy, because, as a parent who, you know, getting notes at home that your kid’s out of focus, they’re out of control, they’re in the principal’s office, it’s like, you just want to help your child. And so I’m not against it, but, gosh, I want parents to ask more questions and really understand that they can alter what their child’s eating, and that might help. They can put them on supplements, and that can help as well, but yes, I don’t think stimulants should be first line. I think that diet, lifestyle, nutrition should be first line.
Katie: And I know you have a course on this as well called Beyond Dopamine. So I’d love to understand more about that, and, like, what are some ways that we can, over time, start to get back into homeostasis with this and increase our dopamine production naturally?
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, I do have a course. It goes into mood, focus, and energy. Those are kind of the three pillars that I work with the most, and really looking into root cause without doing labs, and genetic testing is not within the budget. You can take a course of mine for free called Beyond Dopamine, and we do talk about lifestyle, diet, nutrition, things that we can change in order to boost our dopamine naturally. And some of those things, I mean, we talked about a lot already, but protein intake, exercise, even yoga.
Yoga is a great one. I call that a heavy-hitter exercise. Of course, I want you to lift weights too and, you know, make sure you maintain your muscle mass. And yoga is a great way to maintain strength as well, but doing yoga, it boosts GABA, which is a natural relaxant, and balancing on one leg, which is what we often do in yoga, that actually is a dopamine booster as well. So I often recommend to my clients, trying to work in a combination of weight lifting as well as yoga. Yoga can be great for ADHD as well.
Also, meditation too. I know, gosh, for somebody with high-functioning anxiety and just difficulty with focus anyways, you tell somebody to meditate, a lot of times, they, like, growl at you. And I get that. It’s something that you can work towards getting better at. And you can do walking meditation to start with. It doesn’t mean you have to sit down for half an hour at a time and be silent and have no thoughts. I mean, that’s torturous to a lot of people. But I am a big fan of walking meditations to start off with and then slowly easing into maybe deeper meditations, like with Dr. Joe Dispenza. I’m a huge fan of his work. And meditation is just such a great one. It actually can alter gene expression too, which is so cool.
Ice baths, like I mentioned. Listening to alpha brain wave music. If you’ve got Spotify, you can listen. There’s ADHD music tracks on there to boost dopamine and brown noise for focus. And, like, supplements as well. So supplements, I mean, I think most people should be on a really good multivitamin, B complex. These are a lot of the deficiencies, the common ones that I see. Magnesium deficiency, I love to put most of my clients on… And everyone’s different, but magnesium glycinate is a really great one that crosses the blood-brain barrier. So B vitamins. Omegas, that’s another one I was forgetting to mention, omega-3 supplement. So, like, fish oil with EPA and DHA is great for ADHD as well.
But then I also like to dive into other fun ones like lion’s mane or…what are some other ones, L-theanine for calm focus. NAC, that’s another one of my favorites. That one helps to increase dopamine, helps your body detox more efficiently, and improves your cognitive function. So those are some of my favorites. L-tyrosine is a good one too.
Katie: Yeah, I definitely echo on the magnesium. It seems like, especially for women, but pretty much for everyone in today’s world, magnesium deficiency is an increasing problem. I even had Chris Kresser on here a while back, and he, for years, was very food-first focused when it came to…whenever possible, get everything from food. And he even said, you know, in today’s world, we now live in a world where the food supply is so depleted that it becomes increasingly difficult and impossible in some cases to actually get enough strictly from food, especially with things like magnesium, and the volume of food we would have to eat to get enough magnesium. So he said, you know, he now almost universally recommends that as well. Which leads me to the question, with the caveat, of course, that there’s going to be individualization and personalization and testing caveat to all of this, are there any patterns that you see emerging as very common or almost universal, either good or bad things, when it comes to gut health and ADHD and anxiety?
Kelly: A lot of the patterns I see, overgrowth of Candida, I keep saying it, and I sound like a broken record, but it’s just so common. And like you mentioned, with the magnesium deficiency, I was going to say, I think I’ve yet to see a client who’s not deficient in magnesium. It’s just so common. So, yes, as far as gut health, Candida is one of the biggest underlying ones. And even parasites. I used to do a lot of stool analysis for people, and parasite testing would almost always come back negative. And as last resort for some clients, if they were still having symptoms, we would do a parasite cleanse. And sure enough, they had parasites that didn’t show on their stool analysis. So that’s another one that’s, you know, a common trend that I see.
But lots of deficiencies in B vitamins. Omega imbalances are huge. If you’re not getting a lot of fish in your diet, you’re probably deficient in omega-3. Omega-3 deficiency can often mimic ADHD symptoms as well. So that’s another big one.
Katie: And for people who maybe are resonating with this or know that they have one or both of these things going on, walk us through what it looks like to work with you as a client. Because I know the functional approach is different than what people may have experienced in a more mainstream medical model. And I know you have the background in both, so I would guess you bring a very balanced approach. But what does it look like when someone comes to you for the first time and you take them on as a client?
Kelly: Yeah. So I send you lab kits to your home. These are advanced lab kits. They’re all in-home collections. It’s really very simple. You send everything back to the lab. And then I take a one-on-one approach with my clients. Because this needs to be such a personalized approach, when you work with me, you are working with me one-on-one, as well as with a certified health coach who specialized in ADHD as well, which is so…it’s such a nice addition to have a health coach on board too because I’m kind of behind all the labs and the genetics. And I’m like the science nerd, and I love to explain root cause.
And when you’re on the one-on-one calls with me, we’re really digging in deep so you understand what your labs mean, where your deficiencies lie, where the imbalances are, and then we come up with a personalized plan of action for you. And then you are going to be connected with a certified health coach as well who’s really going to help simplify. Because I give a lot of information, and you know, it can be overwhelming to say, “Okay. Well, now I’ve got to do this, this, and this, and this.” And that’s why a certified health coach can come on board and say, “Okay, here’s what we’re going to do first. Here’s how we’re going to implement these strategies. Here’s how we’re going to simplify them,” and really integrate them into your life so it’s not overwhelming.
And I think that’s the beauty of working with my clients one-on-one is that it’s all personalized. But we work with them over a period of four months. So this is not testing and done. This is we’re guiding you, we’re with you multiple times a month to really keep you accountable, keep you focused on healing and attaining your goals, and then really giving you that momentum so that you can carry that beyond working with us. But really the secret sauce is the support and the combination of that in addition to the labs.
Katie: Awesome. And I know a link, you mentioned the Beyond Dopamine course, that you’re giving access to. I’ll make sure that’s linked in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm for you guys listening on the go, as well as the link to your comprehensive program that you just talked about as well. So those will both be in the show notes. And a few other questions I love to ask for the end of interviews, the first being, if there is a book or a number of books that have really profoundly impacted you personally, and if so, what they are and why.
Kelly: Yes. So I think the one that comes to the top of my mind is “Becoming Supernatural” by Dr. Joe Dispenza. I love his work. I love the research behind the power of meditation and how we can heal our bodies, manage our emotions, and even improve our genetic expression through meditation. And I think that his work, because it’s so backed by actual research, it’s not the pseudoscience that people wanna believe that it is. It’s really amazing work that he’s done. So I love his book, “Becoming Supernatural.”
Also a big fan of Marie Forleo. I know, I just saw that you had her on recently. Oh my goodness. I’m a big fan of her. I just love her work. I love her book, “Everything Is Figureoutable,” because it does give us this mindset of, like, “Okay, I’ve got this. Yes, life’s hard. Sometimes I don’t know the best next step, but I’m just going to keep one foot in front of the other and just figure this life out.” Those two are probably my favorite.
Katie: I love that. I’ll link both of those in the show notes as well. If you guys haven’t read them, I echo the recommendation on both of them. And lastly, any parting advice you wanna leave with the listeners today that could be related to everything we’ve talked about or entirely unrelated?
Kelly: I think it would just be to reiterate that you deserve to ask why. You deserve to work with somebody who is going to listen and support and really help you without gaslighting you, really understanding what your needs are and what your goals are and helping you to get to root cause instead of band-aiding. But really, just most important, ask why. Become that annoying three-year-old that just, “Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?” It’s okay to keep asking why and to dig further into your health, because it’s your health, and we want to maximize and optimize it.
So ask more questions, work with the mentors that you need to work with to get you to the next best step, and don’t take a diagnosis just for what it is. It’s just a label. Take it for just a label that is a classification of symptoms. That’s all it is. And, of course, a diagnosis can give us comfort and answer a lot of questions, but don’t stop there. Ask why. Why do I have this diagnosis? Why do I have these symptoms? Just keep digging deeper. I think that’s my biggest piece.
Katie: I love that so much, and I think this is something I have said on here before. At the end of the day, we are each our own primary healthcare provider, and the impetus is on us to ask why and to find the answers and to figure out what’s going to work for us. And the best outcomes tend to occur when we get to partner with someone who has a unique understanding of whatever we’re specifically going through and maybe has some of the pieces we don’t currently have and who, to your point, it sounds like you’re very much this type of practitioner, actually listen and actually get a whole-person understanding of what’s going on and don’t just look at the symptoms.
And I also love that you really mentioned about “don’t associate with the label.” That was something, in my own mentality, I should have said instead of saying, “I have thyroid disease.” I started even just saying, “I’m recovering from,” or “I’m healing every day from,” and just, like, not making that label part of my identity anymore and being willing to let go of that and work through and find the answers. So I love your approach, I love your passion in this, and I know you’re helping so many people. I’m really grateful to you for being here today and for sharing.
Kelly: Thank you. I’m grateful for you as well. I appreciate your work.
Katie: And thank you, as always, to all of you who are listening for sharing your most valuable assets, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you would join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama” podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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