584: Tucker Max on the Most Significant Finding for Processing Emotions, Trauma, and PTSD

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com, and wellnesse.com. That’s wellnesse with an E on the end. And this episode may get a little controversial, but I wanted to share it because I’m talking about certain things that have really been helpful to me in my own personal healing journey. And since sharing my own story about that, I believe it was Episode 309, I received so many follow-up questions from you guys about specifics on the types of therapies. I’ve had people want to talk about somatic therapies, and I wanted to talk about this piece that was also extremely helpful to me. And like I said, it does get a little bit controversial, but I’m here with a dear friend of mine. His name is Tucker Max, and if you know anything of his history, he has quite a colorful one in the beginning. And I think this makes his story even more profound. He shares very openly about many aspects of that today, and a lot of his firsthand experience. And he’s also someone who has now devoted a large amount of his time to helping find and connect people with the resources to actually access this type of therapies.

For context, we’re talking about certain substances, specifically, MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in particular in this episode, and how this is in clinical trials. There’s an organization called MAPS that is spearheading a lot of the efforts around this, and it is being studied for its use in therapies. And he calls this potentially the most significant finding in psychotherapy and psychology ever, and I can definitely see a case for that and would probably echo that sentiment, how in certain studies they’re studying people with treatment-resistant PTSD, people like war veterans, or those who have had severe assault and trauma who are resisting medications, normal types of therapy, who basically have tried all the other options, and are often in these studies, seeing 80% complete recovery from PTSD, that after a certain amount of time in this therapy, they’re no longer even meeting the diagnostic criteria for PTSD anymore, and no longer needing ongoing treatment. That’s what’s beautiful about some of these is they actually help you to feel, interact with and resolve the feelings and the source of these problems rather than just bypassing them.

So, like I said, this is a little bit controversial, very vulnerable, and personal episode. I share some of my own experience. Tucker shares quite a lot of his, as well as other stories he has permission to share. If you have experienced some sort of trauma, or feeling like this is something that you might want to consider, there’s a lot of great background information in this episode, as well as some practical resources. And there are also many links for those in the show notes for this episode at wellnessmama.fm. So, without further ado, let’s join Tucker Max. Tucker, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Tucker: Thanks for having me, Katie.

Katie: Well, I’m really excited to get to chat with you, and probably we’re gonna go in several different directions today, but you and I’ve had some personal conversations on some things that have helped both of us in our own journeys, and in processing certain things, and I’ve shared before on this podcast about my history with sexual assault and a lot of the things I did in working through that. And one of those things that I shared about was the use of certain psychedelic substances, and how they personally impacted me.

I know that you also have both a lot of research experience and first-hand experience in this realm as well, so, to start a little broad, maybe can you just give us some background on your own experience, and what led into that?

Tucker: Yeah. So, psychedelics have been game-changing for me, in almost every way. In fact, I tell people they’re probably the most important thing I’ve ever done in my life. And I’m married with four kids. And you know my wife, and so, like, people are like, “What? How can they be more important than, you know, your family?” I’m like, “Well, I probably wouldn’t be married without the work I’d done from psychedelic medicine, and I would definitely be a way worse father,” right. So, the things I value the most, in a lot of ways, I still have, and they’re amazing because of the work I did on psychedelics.

So, about 4 years ago, it’s almost exactly 4 years ago, I did my first MDMA therapy. And I’ve had friends who’ve done it, like, pretty well-known people who’ve been doing this for years, and telling me, “Oh, you should go do ayahuasca,” or, “you should do mushrooms,” or blah, blah, blah. And, like, I don’t know. For a long time, I was just like…I just didn’t… I heard them but I wasn’t listening. Right, I wasn’t ready. For a lot of different reasons. One, I was, like, I think I was a child of, not “I think,” I was a child of the ’80s, you know? So I remembered D.A.R.E. and all that, like, propaganda, and I totally bought it. I was like, “Oh yeah, drugs are bad.” And it, true, when I was growing, up everyone I knew who did drugs was a loser. And so, it was, like, that made sense, right? So I never, you know, I wrote famous books that sold tons of copies, about drinking and hooking up and partying, but I never did drugs. Just alcohol and fun, that was it.

And then, but then I saw a lot of my friends get into that field, some, and really see improvement. And then, as I did…I did a lot of talk therapy for years. Which helps. It helps some. But it wasn’t…it was like giving me a map of my mind, but not walking the territory, right? It’s like I knew what I was feeling, why I was feeling it, the connections between everything, but I wasn’t feeling what I was feeling, if that makes sense. And one of my close friends, not famous at all, just some dude, who, he did MDMA therapy. And I saw the change in him. And it was remarkable, and I was like, “That’s what I want.”

And so he connected me to his guy. We’re actually doing a book for this person. Her name is Anne Other, which is, you know, a fake name. She’s a pretty well-known psychotherapist in New York, and has been leading people on MDMA sessions for two decades. Underground, right? And so, she wrote a book about that, and what those sessions were like, and I did my first session with her. And it was, I mean, Katie, it was so transformative. Like, I remember when the medicine hit me, right. You know, I went to her place, with my wife, who came with me. She didn’t do a session, but she was just there, you know. And, you know, you lay on the sofa, you put on a eyeshade, you take the medicine. And it took about an hour and a half, honestly, for it to hit me, or for me to feel it. But when it hit, I mean, my god. I felt the deepest love I had ever felt in my life. Like, I realized I had never actually felt love before. Like, I didn’t know I could feel that. And it was overwhelming. I was crying, telling my wife I loved her. And I did love her, but, like, it was, like, I didn’t realize how much I loved her. I didn’t realize how deep I could feel.

And so, like, that, you know, I went on that journey, and then all the emotions I had pushed away and ran from my whole life started coming up. The fear, the pain, the sadness, the grief. Oh, the grief. And it was a lot. And so, over the next four years, I’ve spent a lot of…I’ve probably done 10 to 15 MDMA sessions. And then I’ve done some other psychedelic medicines. Psilocybin, LSD, ketamine, and we can talk about all that.

It’s, I mean, I’ve lost 25 pounds. And not, didn’t change my diet or workout. Ten times, I’m so much happier. I’m so much more content. I’m so much of a better father, a better husband, a better person. Everything in my life is better. And it’s not…the thing is, these aren’t magic pills. The medicine, the psychedelic didn’t do anything. It’s not like I took this and I was like, “Everything’s great.” No, no. That would be cool, but it’s not how it works. It’s more that what they did is they helped me unlock my emotions, feel my feelings, face my issues. They were a tool, right? Like, I have a house, and I use a hammer to build a house. Building the house is the point, not the hammer. And a lot of people, I think, focus on, “Oh, yeah. It’s the pill.” It’s not the pill. The pill just helped me do the emotional work to get to where I am. Is that kind of what you’re looking for, or?

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s a great jumping-in point, because, like you, I was very against drugs for a very long time, and I had kind of just lumped everything in that general category, and I was very much the, like, straight-A, extremely neurotic, motivated kid in high school. But I have seen the same thing, where I was less afraid of alcohol, which, objectively, is much, much more dangerous for your body, and it’s something I largely avoid now as an adult, just because I don’t feel good on it. But I feel like our society has made alcohol an acceptable poison, and kind of stigmatized these other substances that, to your point, are tools, and, like any tool, can be used incorrectly, and a lot of people maybe have misconceptions about some of these substances, because they’ve seen them used only in a party setting, or they’ve seen times where they can go wrong, or where, not with MDMA specifically, but, like, overdose with other types of substances. And so, those are all things to be aware of.

But I also think it’s important to talk about things like MDMA now being in clinical trials for things like PTSD, and the dramatic results they’re seeing with veterans who are having treatment-resistant PTSD then having these massive changes, and then becoming, to your point, better dads, and able to exist in relationship, and have cohesive relationships. And I think what really stood out to me, and that I think about a lot with my own experience of this, is, like you said, they’re not, it’s not that these substances are fixing something, but they help you access parts of you that if, especially in my case, if you have trauma, you’re very good at locking down. And so you can either completely ignore or just not have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. And I think of the Carl Jung quote, of “Until you make the subconscious conscious, it will rule your life, and you will call it fate.” And I think these often just help kind of remove that veil in a way that just pure talk therapy often has trouble accessing, especially if you have a reason to not want to access those things, and they don’t feel safe.

But I do think this is gonna be maybe a newer concept, or one that, like, seems a little scary for a lot of people listening, so I’d love to keep going deeper into, maybe talk a little bit about how it’s being used in clinical settings, and how these are often assisted sessions, with someone who’s a trained professional.

Tucker: Yeah. So, a big part of the reason I did this… To people who don’t know this world, it can seem like, “What the hell? You’re going doing drugs with some weirdo.” That’s actually what I thought, like, six, seven, eight years ago. I was like, “How the hell would I go do some weird drug with some kooky shaman in the forest?” or, “What the hell are you talking about?” right? Like, if that’s your mindset, I get it. I used to be there. And then, even four, five years ago, there was a ton of research being done into it. And I actually looked, I think at that point, MAPS had finished the stage two clinical trials, and not started stage three.

And so, MAPS is an organization that, you can look them up, that essentially has led the push to legalize psychedelics as medicine, right? And so, they’re a great organization. And the stage two trials, if I remember correctly… The numbers I’m quoting are not exactly right, but they’re close enough. I think there was, like, three different trials, of about 20 to 30 people apiece, done around the world, and on people with severe, untreatable PTSD, meaning that they had gone through, you know, done SSRIs, and EMDR, and talk therapy, every other tool that modern psychiatry and psychology have to treat trauma, and it didn’t work. Treatment-resistant PTSD. So, mainly, they were sexual assault survivors and war veterans. Although there were some other types in there.

And they saw an 80%…for a lot of the stage two clinical trials, they saw an 80% cure rate. Not a, like, not an allevement of pain rate. The, I mean, cure rate meaning the people who went through three guided sessions, so it, kind of like what I described, with, you know, a therapist or two in the room with you. You know, you take about four or five hours to go through the whole thing. Meaning that after about three to, three months to a year after their three sessions, they no longer met the clinical definition for PTSD. Right, so someone who went to war, or got raped, and it was so horrific that they were…nothing was helping them, and they were borderline nonfunctional, was now cured.

There’s a good argument to be made that this is the most remarkable finding in the history of psychology. Period. There’s a great book about this called “A Dose of Hope,” by Dr. Dan Engle, who’s one of the, like, researchers and people leading this charge. It’s, the book’s a novel. It’s a parable about what it’s like for a regular person to kind of do three MDMA sessions, and… But at the beginning, in the intro, he kind of writes about this, and summarizes where it is. And so, once I kind of saw that research, I was like, “Oh.” And then, honestly, I dived into the history of psychedelics, and I was like, “Oh, hold on. Everything I’ve been taught is bullshit,” right? Like, if you… There’s a great series, just came out on Netflix, “How to Change Your Mind.” Michael Pollan wrote the book, “How to Change Your Mind.” They did a Netflix series. He dives deep in the history.

I, honestly, I don’t think Pollan does a very good job explaining what psychedelics do and why to use them in trauma. He does an awesome job detailing the history of psychedelics, and why they’re illegal. And essentially, the government control and suppression, I mean, all boils down to Nixon playing politics, and trying to essentially defeat his political rivals. I know that sounds crazy. Go watch, either go watch it on Netflix or read the book. It’s nuts. The whole history is nuts. And so, once I read that, I was like, “Oh. Okay. So, a bunch of people were using these medicines, like, 60, 70 years ago, really successfully, to treat people with trauma. They were made illegal by asshole politicians, essentially. And the data now is just as good as it was 60 years ago. Well, hell, why would I not do this?

Plus, but honestly, Katie, for me, the thing was seeing my friend. The change in my friend. Like, that was the thing. Data is data, whatever. Studies are studies. Seeing my friend go from neurotic, and anxious, and in constant pain, to, like, calm and content and happy was, like, it was like… And he wasn’t… This is not the type of dude who’s trying to push this on anyone else. Like, he did this, and I was like… Like, that’s all the proof I need. You know?

And so then, now I’ve done it, and it’s like…and I’ve got dozens and dozens of my friends have done this now, and I’ve seen the results so many times. I, my guess is, in 20 years, we’re gonna look back on this period and be like, “My god. Like, what took us so long, and why were we waiting?” And this is the, like I said, the most remarkable, most important thing I’ve ever done in my life is using these tools to deal with my issues.

Katie: Yeah, I would put them very high up on my list as well. And you mentioned that feeling of unconditional love, and that seems like a common experience for many people, especially the first time that they experience it, is to realize the depth of love that they’re capable of feeling. For me, the dramatic part that I felt, because I already had kids at this point, and I knew I felt that feeling of unconditional love for my kids. And it was the first time that I was able to actually, like, turn that, and feel it for myself. And I think that that, actually, was one of the mainly, the really big, pivotal moments for me, because until that point, I had, without knowing it, really kind of created these problematic loops, where I was doing things that were detrimental to my body without realizing it, and trying to, like, punish myself into looking or being a certain way. And just that shift, and it was that day, and it shifted, of being able to feel unconditional love, shifted my motivation from then doing things because out of love for myself and love for my body, which made it no longer a fight, and it was just drastic, to your point, of how actions can change so much from one time of doing that.

I think it’s also important to talk about, because it can be so dramatic, the preparation, and then the integration afterwards. Because, like you said, these can stir up emotions that have been long held down, and that doesn’t always feel like a comfortable process. And I know I can speak a little bit to the physiological stuff you can do to help optimize brain chemistry for it, but I know that there’s a lot that goes into making sure you’re ready for the experience, and then, even more importantly, integrating afterwards.

Tucker: Yeah. So, it’s a great point. One of the main questions I get from people is… Because I was one of the first, not the first, but I was one of the very first people were kind of public, to talk about this publicly, and to admit that I did, and three years ago, I wrote a piece, it’s on my website, it’s on tuckermax.com, about…or you can just google “Tucker Max MDMA.” I wrote a piece about my first two experiences on MDMA and what they were like. And so I had a flood of people reach out to me, asking, you know, questions and whatever, and then I just released a piece, like, “The Beginner’s Guide to Psychedelic Medicine,” to kind of help people who are thinking about this, or wanna know more, to understand it from a true, like, “I don’t know anything about this. Take me step-by-step through what I need to understand.” Because, here’s… I’m gonna answer your question. I’m just taking a long way to get there. The problem in this space is that most of the people who really know psychedelics deeply, and understand how to use them as medicine, are people who have been doing that for 20 or 30 years. And so they’ve forgotten what it’s like to be a beginner, right?

And a lot of them, honestly, when I first got into this space, I was like, “You sound like a fuckin’ kook. You just do.” Like, these… I’m like, “What are you even talking about? Integration? What?” Like, none of it made sense. Because, a lot of different reasons, right?

And so, all right, so, Katie, you brought up an amazing point. If you’re thinking about doing this, the most important thing to understand is that it is not a magic pill. Right? Like, you don’t just take MDMA or psilocybin and everything’s better. It doesn’t make your pain go away. In fact, it’s the opposite. What it, done correctly, what happens is you feel your pain. Right? Most things that most people do are designed to prevent them from feeling their emotions. Especially painful emotions, right? Most people… Like, Katie, how many people do we know, in all the mastermind groups we’re in, super successful, busy all the time, and you know damn well the reason they’re busy all the time is because they don’t wanna…if they stopped, they would feel some emotions they don’t wanna feel. Sadness, loneliness, grief, emptiness, whatever. Right?

Katie: Totally. And candidly, I was that for a very long time, using productivity to avoid having to face those things, and then I was worried I was gonna, like, lose my edge if I let go of that.

Tucker: Exactly. Right? A hundred percent. I was a hundred percent… I wrote books about drinking and hooking up with tons of women, and drinking too much and partying and all… And yeah, I mean, there’s a part of that that’s fun, but why was I doing that? Because I didn’t wanna feel any of my emotions. And those are great ways to avoid emotions, right? And so, that’s just the truth. I mean, it’s like, it doesn’t…good or bad. Just, the reality. And so, what psychedelics do, at their core, is they bring forward the stuff you’re running from. Okay? That’s gonna be hard. That’s not easy. And so, when… Getting ready for that means what, in the psychedelic literature, in this space, is called “integration,” right?

So, on… Let’s say I do an MDMA session, right? And I feel… My mom was not really around for me much, and didn’t want me as a kid, right? And so, you can imagine that produced a lot of big emotions for me as a kid. And, as a kid, a small child, you can’t deal with big emotions. I pushed them away, to survive, right? Not even consciously. Unconsciously, sort of. And so, like, on what… I remember, one MDMA session specifically, I felt like I was feeling the grief of the world. It wasn’t. It was probably mine, right? All mine. But, like, it was overwhelming. I thought I was gonna die from grief. Now, this is in the middle of the session. It was so much grief. I had no idea I had in me. Right?

And that, absolutely, that was overwhelming to me as a child, and it was nearly overwhelming to me as an adult. So, what was different? What was different was, as an adult, I had a integration practice, and I understood this was…something like this could happen, and how to deal with it. Right? And so, integration means what are the things you’re doing before and after your session to help you process and deal with the emotions that come up? So, for me, my, the core parts of my integration… and I talk about this in “The Beginners Guide to Psychedelics,” but the core parts of my integration process is, talk therapy’s one. Having someone I can talk to, on a routine basis about this, that knows me, that is totally on my side, in a supportive, nonjudgmental way, is really, really important, right?

So, that’s one. Not just any therapist. You gotta find a good one, that really connects with you, and that you trust, right? And so, I have one, and he’s been great. And then, I mean, basic… The rest, honestly, most of it, for me, is basic stuff. I journal every single day, for anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, depending on the day. I get eight hours of sleep, right? I eat correctly. I get the exercise I need. I’ve set up my life… You know, tons of other things. Acupuncture, etc. I’ve set up my life to understand that I am in a… I have not just a thinking, rational mind, but an emotional mind, and I need to pay as much attention to my emotions as I do my thoughts, right? And so, that’s really what integration is, is understanding this.

If you’ve never done psychedelic medicine, I’m telling you, it’s so hard to understand ahead of time. This stuff, once you do it, you feel it, and you get it… Most of the people I know that have done this do not build much of an integration practice ahead of time. Not because they’re stupid or unprepared. A lot of my friends, like you, Katie, super good entrepreneurs, are, like, have everything, all their ducks in a row and everything, but they don’t even know what it means to take care of themselves. And what psychedelics do, in a lot of ways, is connect you to yourself. Not just negative emotions, but you could love… For the first time, like you said, you could love yourself. You care about yourself. You understand these things, and so you start to build the life that represents that, right? And so, it’s important to understand this is part of the process. I wouldn’t… I don’t ever tell people, “You have to do all of this ahead of time,” because, for most people, it’s almost impossible to really feel a lot of that…to do that until they start feeling those emotions. Does that make sense?

Katie: Yeah, it does. And I think, yeah, you feel the need for the integration after, much more easily, once you’ve experienced it, for sure. I think, for me, it was helpful to know a little bit of the physiological side going in, and just have taken things like ALA and magnesium ahead of time, to prepare my brain chemistry for it. But I think the integration makes much more sense, to your point, afterwards, for sure.

Tucker: Yeah, the place I see most people having problems, so, is, the question I get all the time. “What if I have a bad trip?” right? And so this is where I see a lot of people having problems, is they’ll do a session, and some really big emotions will come up, and then they kind of half expect they can just, like, keep the emotions in the session, and they just go back to their regular life afterwards. That’s… If you don’t wanna change your life, I would not do psychedelic meds. Because it’s gonna change your life. Right? Now, almost certainly in positive ways, but let’s not pretend that the positive ways are immediate. Because sometimes they’re not. What I like to tell people is that things are almost always, for most people, they’re almost always gonna be, they’re gonna get way more challenging before they get easier. Right?

I’m gonna give you an example, Katie. So, my… I talk about this publicly, because she’s public about it. She’s fine. My mother-in-law, my wife’s mom… You know most people are, like, the jokes, with, oh, they can’t stand their mother-in-law. I get along great with my mother-in-law. We, my wife and my mother-in-law, they fight. My mother-in-law and I get along fantastic. So, she saw… And she is, like, a red-state, country woman. You know, Fox News, MAGA, like, that, she’s very much that style. But, nothing wrong with it. Just so you understand who she is. And she, obviously, like, drugs are stupid. She thought therapy was for crazy people. She’s very much, like, that, comes from that world.

She saw the change in me after…you know, I was open with her. I told what I did. And after about three, four months of seeing that, she told me she wanted to do MDMA therapy. Which, of course, was like, “What? Granny? Really?” And she was serious. Like, she did her reading. She saw the change in me. She went and researched. She’s like, “Yeah. I think I wanna do this.” And I was like, “Okay, cool.” Like, this can really help. And so, I went with her, you know, got a guide, of course, but there’s a lot of underground guide, how to look and how to find them. And so, I got a guide, connected her to them. She set everything up. I went with her to kind of be moral support, instead of her daughter. Because they fight, and whatever, and I don’t have any issue with her.

So, during her session… So she, you know, took the medicine. Of course, like, you know, after five minutes, she’s like, “I don’t think it’s working,” and, like, you know, because she was so anxious, and the guide’s like, “Cindy, it’s been 5 minutes. Relax.” And, so, about an hour later, I literally, visibly saw her… You know, she was a very tense woman all the time, right? Like, kind of stoop, like this. Saw her relax, like, physically, in a way I’d never seen her ever, once, in her life. And then she said, “Oh, wow. You’re right, Tucker. The way you described it. So…” Like, she felt love, and she was, like, this amazing, kind of, five minutes of joyfulness. And then she got really quiet. And, like, really quiet. To the point where, like, I wondered if she was still breathing. Like, dead. And then, all of a sudden, she started kind of groaning. And then she started screaming. And Katie, I don’t just mean, like, a little scream. Like, imagine the worst screaming you’ve ever heard in a horror movie, but worse. This was like, this was the sound someone makes when they think they’re dying.

It was… And of course… I mean, we were in kind of a private place, but there were still other houses around, where the guide lived. And I’m like, sitting there like, “Okay, well, the fucking cops are gonna be coming.” Like, she was screaming so loud and so intensely. I’m literally thinking up in my mind, “Okay, what do I say to the sheriff when he gets here?” Because, you know, I’m not, like, trying to interrupt her or anything. Like, this is okay. This is what she’s going through. Like, I’ll hold space, with the guide. I’ll be…but… And it was about 10 minutes maybe of the worst screaming I’ve ever heard, a primal scream, I’ve ever heard in my life. And then she shot up, off the sofa, ripped her eye mask off, and I don’t know if you’ve ever seen someone in shock. Like, true shock. I have, because I, one time, like, I came up on a highway and this car wreck, and it was, like, a bad one, and there were people… Like, I’ve seen shock. She looked like those people after that horrible car wreck. Like, her face, everything.

And I grabbed her by the hand. I said, “Granny, it’s okay. You’re okay.” And she looked at me with, honestly, pure terror in her face, and she said, “Are you sure?” And it spooked me. So, what came up for her, and this is actually not super common, but it definitely happens on MDMA therapy, she had been repeatedly, violently raped by family members, plural, as a kid. Like, between the ages of I think about 4 and 8. And she had so suppressed it, and pushed it away. And it came up, right away, on her first session. Like, an hour and a half in. That’s what most people would call a bad trip.

I will tell you, that’s actually probably the best thing that can happen. Okay? Which sounds crazy. Stay with me. Yes, it’s… Like, I mean, I sat in… It’s so funny. Like, I’d never sat… I’d done a couple sessions, but I’d never sat in ones. The first one I sat in, it was, like, kind of worst case scenario, in a way. But best case. That’s in her. That happened to her. The point of MDMA therapy is to bring that up, so that she can then feel it and process it. And she did, she had to do, I mean, I don’t know how many sessions, she’s done a lot, to really bring all that up and process all that. And it was honestly hell. It was hell for her, to go through it. But, the woman is now, she’s lost, I think 60 pounds or 80 pounds. Something insane. She’s a fundamentally different person, in all ways. Like, she’s the type that used to share, like, Fox News and she doesn’t care about politics anymore. Her relationship with her daughter, my wife, totally different now. She is, like, and she’s almost like a, like, you know, like, this, the archetype of a sweet old granny? She was not like that before. Now she’s like that. Like the wise, calm old lady. She’s just amazing.

A bad trip is when emotions come up that you aren’t ready for, in a space that you can’t handle it. What she had, she was maybe not ready for, but it, she could handle, and it was in a safe space. And she realized that’s the work she had to do. And so she spent the next, you know, three years. She got into talk therapy. Like, going three times a week, or something crazy. She, like, dove deep into this. Really realized, okay, this is, this happened to me. This is real. I’m gonna face this, and I’m gonna deal with this. But things got way, way harder, right? And now she’s out the other side, and amazing. That is a very common scenario with this stuff, and that’s what I mean when I say, like, things often get harder before they get easier. You know? That’s what this medicine can do. So, if you… Even…I didn’t have anything, like, no sexual abuse or anything, thank God. But, like, that’s what this medicine does. That’s why you do this therapy. That’s why you take this road.

If you’re not ready to do that, or don’t want to, cool. Don’t. No problem. You don’t need to. There’s no shame in this. It’s not a thing you have to do. But if you’re at that point in your life where you think, you know what? I wanna face my stuff, whatever your stuff is… Your stuff might not be that much, but whatever. Your stuff is your stuff, and this is one of the best ways I’ve seen to ever deal with it. If that makes sense.

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s a great explanation of, and reframe of the idea of a bad trip, because I think that does scare off a lot of people. And certainly seems like different substances can cause different experiences of that processing, and so that’s another important thing to be aware of. I think, from my side, I was aware of what I needed to process, but I also, looking back, it’s laughable, but I thought I already had. I was kind of in place of, like, “Oh, I don’t need to emotionally deal with that. Like, I’m fine. I feel fine most days. I’m totally fine. I just have all these unresolved health issues that don’t make any sense, and I carry all this extra weight, but that, obviously, those aren’t related.” And then, experiencing it, I realized not only are they related, but it was extremely intricately related for me.

Can we talk a little bit about, you mentioned ketamine as well, and psilocybin. Those obviously create a little bit different types of experiences, and I feel like they all have their place, but maybe you can speak to how those are used differently, and maybe the time and place for the different ones.

Tucker: Right. Totally. So, MDMA is, for most people, by far the best place to start. And MDMA is the best medicine for trauma. Like, if trauma, if you dealt with it, if you have suffered a lot of trauma, or you think you have, or whatever, or you really wanna focus on trauma, MDMA is kind of like the perfect medicine for that. There are other psychedelics, right? Psilocybin, magic mushrooms, is very famous. I consider that sort of, like, the multi-tool. Like, you can use psilocybin for trauma. It’ll work. Not always the optimal choice, just simply because mushrooms can be, they can feel very dark. If you have a lot of really dark, difficult trauma, mushrooms bring that up in a, can bring it up in a way that’s very symbolic, and associative, and kind of scary at first if you’re not used to it. So, that happened to me. And so, like, you wanna be careful with those. Not bad or good, just different.

Ketamine is a dissociative, right? Ketamine is legal. It’s the only psychedelic that is fully legal in America right now. Ketamine is the best treatment… If you are suicidal, it will almost always cure you of your suicidal ideation, for at least a couple weeks. Also, it’s great for chronic pain. So, if you have some sort of pain issue, especially chronic pain that you can’t tie to an actual cause. Like, for example, I had a back injury that, like, was healed but still lingered. It would hurt sometimes, but it was kind of ghost pain. Like, you know, like, your body sometimes will carve a pathway of pain, a neural pathway. Like, this area is associated with pain. Even when the area is healed, it still has phantom pain. It cut that, and I had no issue with that.

Ketamine is essentially a hard reset on a lot of the default mode network in a lot of ways. That can be really useful. Ketamine is very difficult, though, also. It’s very rough. There’s also LSD, which is fantastic for a lot of things. It’s very intense. There’s a lot of… Each one is kind of used for its own sort of thing. So, for almost everyone, I usually recommend beginning with MDMA. One, because it’s much easier to find really experienced, good guides for MDMA. Two is that MDMA is…I like to say MDMA’s your friend, right. It’s very soft and gentle. So, one of the reasons you put an eyeshade on and you lay down during an MDMA session is because it is so soft and gentle that if you’re… Like, you can take that and, like, go… There’s a reason… The whole rave scene was people taking MDMA and dancing and doing other things, right. Which, probably, that, what they were doing is processing a lot of trauma, but because they were moving, and talking, and being distracted, they didn’t have to go that deep.

So, MDMA, you can essentially modulate the effects, right? If you take off your eyeshade and sit up and start talking, the impact’s gonna go from, like, a ten to, like, a two. Right, that’s not true on most psychedelics. Like, when you’re on ketamine, you’re on ketamine. You don’t… there’s no coming out of that, right? Same with mushrooms and LSD. For the most part, when you’re on a trip, it’s like being on a rollercoaster. Once the bar comes down and locks in, and starts moving, you’re not getting off. Right? Whereas MDMA is more like being in a car. You can pull it over anytime and get out. Right, yeah, you’re still on the side of the road. You’ll be feeling something, but you can definitely modulate the impacts quite a bit.

And then, also, MDMA doesn’t have what…the impacts that, doesn’t usually have most of the impacts that most people associate with psychedelics. Like, if you’re doing psilocybin or LSD, you might see a lot of visual things, like a lot of weird, you know, walls moving, you know, strange animals, or things that you don’t think are there, if you do very deep sessions. You know, flowing colors, geometric patterns are super common on those. You don’t really get much of that on MDMA. Simplistically, when I do MDMA, I know my name, I know what time it is. I feel like I’m in my right mind, but just a very open state, right. Emotionally. When I’m on psilocybin or LSD, man, I’m in a different place. It feels to me like something has been put into me that alters my mind, and I’m, again, I’m talking metaphorically. MDMA doesn’t feel that way.

And quite literally, in a biological sense, MDMA doesn’t really, I don’t believe it crosses the blood-brain barrier. I believe it triggers your brain to… If it does, it does it very subtly. It triggers your brain to essentially dump all its serotonin and norepinephrine, whereas, like, the…most psychedelics are tryptamine derivatives. They cross the blood-brain barrier, and they actually really do create different responses in your brain.

Now, not better or worse. I use psilocybin for therapy. LSD has been one of the most important things I’ve used for medicine. That tends to be more advanced, though, because… I’ll explain, simplistically, I’ll explain why. LSD essentially rips the veneer off of reality, and pushes your face into it. Right? That’s rough, man. Like, if you’re just thinking about casually trying this a little bit, to kind of see, maybe work on some issues, it honestly is not what you wanna do. LSD is like, it’s like saying I wanna learn UFC fighting, so I’m gonna go step in the ring against a champion, to spar the first time. No. Don’t do that. You need to learn the basics first. Get used to it. Train a little bit, then you’re ready to kind of play with the champs, right? You can do that. I mean, I know plenty of people who, for their first journey, decided to do ayahuasca, for example, and flew down to Peru, and spent a week doing it in the jungle. All of those people, almost all of those people tell me, “Yeah, that was really rough.” They spend the week, to be frank, shitting and pissing and vomiting, and see things and experience things that are very challenging for them.

Now, if you want that, you can go get it done. Not what I did. I had really good mentors, who really knew psychedelics, and, you know, they told me all of this, and I was like, “You know what? I’m gonna learn to swim in the kiddie pool, not in the deep end of the Pacific,” right? So, MDMA is the kiddie pool, in a sense. And this is one of those things, honestly, where being kind and compassionate to yourself, and taking it slow, is by far the best medicine. You know, some things are better off just jump in, get going. In my experience, and the experience that…I’ve seen a lot, I’ve helped a lot of people start in this space, the ones who take it slow, go in a path they can handle, almost always…I don’t wanna say “do better” in a judgmental sense. I just mean, like, they find it a lot more rewarding, and usually long-term a lot more beneficial. Like, if you jump in the deep end, and you can think you’re ready, you’re not ready, things can get worse, truly. Like, for real. Like, this is, I don’t wanna say, “Oh, there’s no risk. Everyone should do this.” No. Everyone should not do this. No one should do this who isn’t ready. And the deeper, more intense psychedelics are no joke. They are not things to do lightly.

Katie: Yeah, absolutely echo that. And I would say it’s a thing, certainly, if you’re even considering, do your research. I’ll link to the guides you’ve written, and to your experience with it, as well as some things I’ve written, so that you guys do your research ahead of time. I think, also, that you mentioned finding a good guide is really, really important to actually help guide the session and get the most out of it. And I also agree, MDMA seems like the gentlest, because it seems to create a feeling of safety for many people. And often, we don’t wanna touch these emotions because we don’t feel safe doing that, and that, also, I had to learn to reframe, is not a bad thing. My brain did that to protect me, and I actually, in those experiences, learned to feel the emotion, which, even separate of substances, if you don’t wanna do these at all, learning to actually feel our emotions rather than resist them makes it much easier to let go of them.

But I went through this kind of visualization process, kind of intuitively, where I felt those things, and I recognized the protectiveness that they actually had, and how they had served me through all those years, and I thanked them. Like, I sort of visualized holding them in my hands, thanking them for keeping me safe, and then telling them, you know, “Thank you for doing this. I don’t need you anymore,” and letting go. And it felt like, like, the feeling of freedom of that was very, very profound, and I found a quote later that seemed to resonate, related to that, that said, you know, “Forgiveness is setting the prisoner free, and realizing the prisoner was yourself,” and that’s what I feel like I felt in those moments.

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But yes, to echo what you said, this is not a thing I think that everyone should do, or do unprepared, or just do casually. It’s a big tool, and one that can be amazing, but understanding it going into it is important, and having that preparation. And also, finding a good guide and a safe space to do this, which I think is one of the harder pieces, potentially, right now, because though these are in clinical trials, they’re not easy to access. They’re not, certainly, some of them are not legal yet, although I’m confident we’re gonna be getting to that point soon. So, any advice for people on finding guides who know what they’re doing, finding safe… Like, there are certainly those cautions to be aware of. Don’t go buy this on the street corner and try to do it yourself.

Tucker: It’s a great question. So, three years ago, when I wrote the piece about my first MDMA experience, I had literally hundreds of people reach out and ask me to connect them to Anne, who’s the guide I used. Most guides, for obvious reasons, do not take referrals from someone unless, like, they know… You know, like, Anne said to me, “I’m happy…anyone you know, any friend of yours, I’m happy to take a referral, but if you don’t know someone, don’t send them to me.” Of course. She’s, I mean, she could go to jail, right? Like, which, it seems so ridiculous, actually, you go to jail. All she’s doing is helping people heal their trauma. But, whatever.

But, since that time, I’ve kind of, I had so many people reach out to me that I’m like, I can’t just talk about this and not help them in some way. So there’s a lot of underground guides in America, and I kind of, because I’ve, just connections and whatever, I dove deep into the underground guide networks. And I found two guides who are both very good. One of them sat for me. She’s fantastic. The other one sat for a ton of my friends. Very experienced. And they’re willing to take blind referrals, meaning, people, like, they don’t know. And so, that aren’t coming from a trusted source. So I’ll make this offer to your listeners. If any of them want a referral to a guide, you can e-mail me, [email protected], or go through the form on my site, tuckermax.com, and I will refer… I know a guy in New York, and a guy in Nashville. Both fantastic. Both really specialize in MDMA and mushrooms. I know tons of other guys do other stuff, but they don’t, none of them take blind referrals, so..

I’m happy to kind of help them that way. If you’re not comfortable with that for some reason, cool. The other places I know you can look, there’s a couple ways to find guides. One is Reddit. There’s forums on psychedelics. You can, if you look there, and DM enough people, you can probably find some. There are always, almost always psychedelic association meetups in various towns. If you go to those, you can sometimes meet people. The other thing I would do is there’s a website called psychedelic.support. I think run by MAPS, or a MAPS offshoot organization. They have a database of therapists who are psychedelic-friendly, right, who help people with integration. If you go to them… Most of them don’t sit for people. Some of them actually do. But if you ask them if they know guides… You kinda have to be a patient. You don’t just e-mail them and say, “Hey, can you find me someone who give you drugs?” Find one that you like. Be a patient. Once they know you and trust you, if they know someone, they’ll often refer you to them. Those are kind of the main ways I would know to find a guide.

Yeah, the big question for a lot of people is, like, “How do I pick a guide?” because, like, even if you find one, they may not be the right person. The short answer is, and I write about this in my “Beginners Guide to Psychedelic Medicine,” but the short answer is I look for someone I trust. Right? Same with a talk therapist versus in a medicine guide. And it’s, I don’t just… Yeah, if a friend refers me, and says, “Oh, you know, they’ve sat for me. They’re great,” that weighs heavily. That is by no means everything. Like, I’m gonna do iboga next year, which is a very advanced medicine. I don’t recommend that for anyone…beginner.

But there were three different guides I talked to, all very highly recommended by people I know and trust. One of them, I did not resonate with at all. Like, probably the most experienced, and the one who had the best credentials. And not like, it wasn’t a judgment of that person. It was just, like, the way they approach life, and the way they approach stuff, just didn’t resonate with me. Okay, cool. Another one was like, okay. Like, I probably could have gone with them. But then the third one, I just felt, not a connection with, like, a romantic or friendship. Just a trust for. I felt like I could put my life and my soul in this person’s hands, and they were going to be able to bear that weight. Right? That’s what I mean by trust. Because, like, doing this medicine is, like, I mean, you heard the story I told about my mother-in-law. Could you imagine that that had happened to her with people she didn’t trust, or in an unsafe place? It could be re-traumatizing. It can be almost worse than not doing it at all. Right?

So, if you listen to your gut, as much as you can, and the more you can find someone you trust, right? And how do you determine? Ask them questions. Ask them, you know, whatever you’re worried about. How many times have you done this medicine? You know, what came up for you? Where do you get it? Like, it’s totally valid to ask an MDMA guide where they get their medicine. They may not say the exact person, but generally, how do you know it’s pure? Right? Like, whatever things you’re worried about, ask. Inquire. See what their answers are like. This is a weird space, and it’s not regulated right now. It’s underground. It’s illegal. So there’s downside and upside. The downside is, you know, all the obvious downsides, right? Unregulated, people can do whatever they want. There are a ton of people out there who call themselves ayahuasca shamans who are frauds and clowns, and should not be sitting for anyone. Just straight, especially ayahuasca. You gotta be very careful with ayahuasca shamans. But even some of the other medicines, man, they’re like, “Oh, yeah. I’m a shaman.” Man, they’ve done drugs…they do drugs with their friends a few times and call themselves a shaman. Those people exist. Make no mistake about it.

Then on the other hand, though, because it’s illegal, because there’s a risk, the vast majority of people who are doing this are doing this because it’s a real calling for them. Right? Like, the two guys that I know that I’m willing…that take blind referrals, they’re both women. Those women, man, I would trust either of those women with my life. Like, they’re fantastic. They’re beautiful people. They are doing this because the medicine saved their lives, and made all the difference to them. And so they’re willing to take that risk, to help other people on their journey. So, like, that’s the upside of it being illegal still, you know, is that the vast majority of guides are true believers, right? And so, I would look for that. Find someone who you feel like is a true believer, who you feel like you can trust.

Katie: And I could imagine some of the objections that come up for some people around this, that I’d love to just touch on, would be that either this, some people view this as, like, a form of escapism or bypassing, and/or people who just have, kind of like I did early on, that resistance to all things classified as drugs. And so I’m curious if you have any other things you would say to those particular types of people. I know one thing I would say on the medical side is, especially with MDMA, it’s not causing, like you said, the visualizations. It’s not mind-altering in that sense. And, often, if you’ve been ever in a medical situation, you might have taken components of this already in a medical setting, because they’re widely used. But anything else you’d add on that, for people who are, that’s their level of resistance?

Tucker: Yeah. That’s a super good point. So, there’s a term for this in the psychedelic space. It’s called “spiritual bypass.” Right? In fact, I’m gonna tell you, Katie, I should…not should have. I was set… I was close to doing psychedelics two or three years before I did. I went to this… The reason I didn’t… I could use his name, because he’s a friend, and I love him. But Aubrey Marcus is a good friend of mine. And he would always come over for dinner. And this is, you know, this is seven years, eight years ago. He’s grown and matured so much since then. But, like, at that point, he just would not shut up about ayahuasca. “Ayahuasca this, ayahuasca that. You gotta take ayahuasca. Aya, aya, aya.” And it’s not like…he wasn’t trying to sit for me. He wasn’t trying to sell me anything. Like, literally. Like, he wasn’t trying to get me to buy ayahuasca from him.

But, like, the way he was pitching it was so over the top. And I know Aubrey well, and his life at the time, he was, his life was a hot fuckin’ mess. And I’m like, “Dude, your life is such a mess, and you’re pushing this so hard. Like, if you told me to eat, I would starve. Like, I don’t…not only do I not believe you, I’m gonna do the opposite of what you say.” Right? Because he really was spiritually bypassing at that point. Now, I don’t think he is now. I think that was just part of his journey, and, like, he’s an amazing dude. And that’s a part of…. I went through a phase like that, a little bit. Not quite as bad. A little, little, you know, with the medicine. It’s a super common thing for people to, especially when they’re, like, session two through session six, let’s say if they do a lot, people can feel like… Because you make progress. And so, once you get through the beginning hump, and you start making progress, a lot of people can feel like they’re a lot more enlightened than they are. Subjectively.

And that, to me, is the real danger zone, is, like, “Oh, wow. I’ve made a little progress, and now everything’s great.” I get it. If you’re worried about that, that’s a valid worry. The way to deal with it is find really good guides, really good therapist, a really good integration system, and understand that this is probably gonna be a five-year journey. Right? To get to a, let’s call it a “healed place.” You’re gonna be way more healed for every session, just about every session you do, right. So, like, it’s not like there’s nothing, and then you cross a finish line in five years. No. It’s a continuum. But I, at the beginning, I told myself this will be a five-year journey, and I’m four years in, and looks like I’m about right. I have no idea how far I am on my journey in terms of healing. I know I’ve come a long, long way. And it’s amazing. And I don’t really worry about five years, or this or that, or finish lines anymore. I’m at that point.

But if you’re put off by this, by a lot of the people who put on spiritual airs, I get it. Like, I’m not one of those people. I live on a ranch. Like, I raise sheep and cows, and kids now. Like, I am… I carry a gun with me. Like, I am the least… Like, I don’t… All of the nonsense spiritual BS that some of those people do, I don’t do any of it. I don’t believe in any of it. You don’t have to to use this medicine as an amazing tool to help you in your life.

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s a really important caveat, and I know we’ve gone through our time so, so quickly, but I know you have so many resources for this. There are also now many more through, MAPS and through other organizations. I will link to all of those in the show notes, so you guys can find those at wellnessmama.fm. I’ll link to Tucker’s website as well, if you wanna reach out and contact him. Anything else that we haven’t touched on, that you think is important background or understanding on this topic, and then I have a couple final wrap-up questions.

Tucker: Yeah, I mean, the big one is, honestly, for most people… I hope I’ve been clear about this, and I’m pretty sure Katie is, too. I’m not telling anyone you should do this. Like, this is not a sort of thing where it’s like…there’s no “should” here, there’s no “must,” there’s no “have to.” There’s no “got to.” If you feel called to this, then I would encourage…I would invite you to explore it, and see if it’s right for you. Right? If you don’t, that’s okay. I was not called… I hate… The term “called” is, like, one of those spiritual things, that, like, I…. “Called” means do you feel like it’s right for you or not? I didn’t feel like it was right for me for years. Right? Like, when I, when Aubrey was pushing aya on me, I actually was, I’m very glad I did not do ayahuasca first. I’ve done ayahuasca since. I did it about three years in. It was great for me, three years in. Like, that’s when I was ready for aya. I would not have been ready early on. My gut was right. It’s a good thing I resisted that, you know?

So, if you’re not called, cool. No judgment. No shame. You may… Man, I know people, and Katie, I’m sure you do too. I know people who can get to this level of healing and feeling their emotions without having to use psychedelics. That’s cool too. There’s no issue with that. These are just a tool. And I believe it is the best tool for most people in the West because our culture is so traumatized, and so emotionally disconnected, and bereft, that it is a really good tool for a lot of people. Not for everyone. Don’t have to do it. And please don’t feel like my message is that. That my message is just, if this is a thing you think you might wanna do, I’m gonna try and help you figure out the best way for you. Not that you should.

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s a really great perspective. Couple last wrap-up questions, the first being if there is a book or a number of books that have profoundly influenced your life, and if so, what they are and why.

Tucker: Yeah. So, we’re gonna talk about psychedelics. So, “A Dose of Hope,” by Dr. Dan Engle. That’s on Amazon. It’s fantastic. It’s a parable, so it’s a really easy read. But really, will walk you through… If you’re thinking about MDMA, that is the book. You can read that book and nothing else, then you can make your decision. Staying on psychedelics, if you don’t…if you really wanna dive deep into what integration looks like, like, “how do I do the emotional work around therapy?” there’s a book called “How to Do the Work,” by Dr. Nicole LePera. Have you had her on your podcast? The holistic psychologist?

Katie: No, but I would love to.

Tucker: You totally should. She’s great. Like, her… She’s the… I don’t think her book is the perfect way to go through it, but it is the best thing I’ve ever read, to give someone a framework on what therapy actually means, and how to do it in a way that works for most people, “How to Do the Work.” It’s really good. And she’s coming out with a handbook for it, too, in a few months. And I don’t know her, actually, at all. Like, I haven’t even met her. So, I’m not… I know Dan really well. I don’t know her. And then, the next book, if you want… A lot of people are, like, very suspicious about, “What’s trauma? I haven’t been to war. I wasn’t raped. I don’t have trauma.” There’s a whole conversation around trauma. I would recommend, there’s one book that is probably the best. It’s called “The Body Keeps the Score,” by Bessel van der Kolk. Bessel van der Kolk. It’s got, like, 20,000 reviews on Amazon. Just, “Body keep the score.” You’ll see. book walks you through the science of trauma, right? It will blow your doors off if you don’t know anything about this.

This there’s also books by Peter Levine, like “How to Wake the Tiger,” and things like that, but Bessel’s is the place to start. If you’re interested in this space, those are the three keystone books I would recommend, to read. Yeah.

Katie: I will link to all of those as well. And lastly, any parting advice for the listeners that could be related to everything we’ve talked about, or entirely unrelated?

Tucker: Man, I think I’ve shot my load, Katie. I don’t know if I have anything else. Yeah.

Katie: Well, thank you. That was perfect, and I think we went into some vulnerable and personal topics. I’m really grateful you were willing to share so openly about these. I think I’ve certainly seen the effects, and how helpful they can be. I know you have as well, and to echo what you said, it’s not that they’re for everyone, or that we’re actively encouraging people to do this, but I felt it’s worth a conversation, because it has helped so many people, especially people who have PTSD, or these more extreme versions, that are aware of it, and are actively trying to work through it and can’t.

And I’m hopeful that the conversations will continue, and the research will continue, and that hopefully, access to these things will get much easier in the next few years. But for now, thanks for all the work you’re doing around this, and around education, and I feel like your personal journey has been quite amazing, and that you sharing it so openly has been helpful to so many people. So, thank you.

Tucker: Thank you, Katie.

Katie: And thank you as always to all of you, for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of “The Wellness Mama Podcast.”

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.