862: Raising Emotionally Secure and Happy Children With Eli Harwood

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and I’m back today with Eli Harwood to talk about raising emotionally secure and happy children. And she gives some really great tips and advice and foundational things we can do as parents to help build secure relationships with our children at any age and even if they are grown, she gives advice. I love so many of the ideas and advice that she gives also her perspective of what percentage of actually the time we need to show up in a regulated, responsively way as parents and why the number might be smaller than you think so we’re not failing if we don’t get it right all the time. She also gives an amazing list of things our children need to hear from us that really help build a secure attachment as well as some tangible ways to navigate things like conflict with our children, how to create an environment where our kids feel safe opening up to us even about big feelings or the hard things at any age and how this shifts in the teenage years and then certainly in adulthood, navigating the balance between boundaries and limitations, but also their feelings always being valid and so much more. She has a tremendous amount of resources available as well. I will link to those in the show notes, including books, including her book, Raising Securely Attached Kids. I’ll also link to our first episode together. If you missed it, I highly recommend it. Let’s join and learn from Eli. Eli, welcome back.

Eli: Thank you so much. It’s so good to be here with you again.

Katie: Well, I absolutely loved our first episode delving into the science of attachment. I will link to that episode in the show notes. If you guys haven’t heard it, I highly recommend, you provided so much valuable insight in that episode. And in this one, I’m really excited to go even deeper into the specific topic of how this relates to our relationship with our children. And since most people listening are parents, how some tangible ways we can work toward raising emotionally safe, secure, and happy children. I know that is likely an important goal for almost every parent, hopefully all parents. And I feel like you have such incredible insight into this topic. I think to start off, like I said, most people listening are parents. Can you give us some insight into how we can understand if our relationship with our children is secure or insecure, and then we can get into strategies on how to strengthen those bonds.

Eli: Absolutely. So if an attachment relationship between a parent and child is secure, then what has happened is that the care and the insight and the responsiveness of the parent’s mind has gotten embedded in the child’s beliefs about the relationship. So if a caregiver has been able to be consistently responsive, I’m here, I got you, warm, like I love being near you, regulated, you know, not reactive, then what happens in the child’s mind is they’re like, when I’m in need, I can seek my caregiver actively and I will actively find the type of soothing, settling, and safety that I need in my body to get back to work, to get back to play.

You know, when kids are really small, I think of like, you know, the little person on the playground, right. And they, they start to run out to the playground and then they notice that there’s another kid. My, my girls are in a stage of life. They’re four and a half where they’ve like decided they think boys are bad. And so they’re like, I don’t like boys. So they might run out into the playground and notice that like, alas, there is a boy there, right. No matter how many times I remind them, you like your dad and your brother and your, they’re like, no strange boys though. No, they, they will turn their bodies back around towards me, right? And seek proximity with me. And depending on how dysregulated they are, sometimes that’s just a glance. Other times that’s like a full sprint and jump onto me koala style, right?

But they’re drawing upon our relationship and they’re looking to me like, is she okay with this kid? Does she seem regulated? Does she seem like she can handle my response to this situation? You know, and I’m looking at them and I’m like, oh, you got scared. You’re a little uncomfortable with that boy. Okay, let’s talk about how we can handle it. Or I might just give them a hug. But what they would do with that is they would draw upon my calmness. And they would go back out on the playground and maybe they would, you know, figure out how to play with that kid or they would avoid that kid, whatever the strategy is at four and a half that particular day, changes moment to moment. But the dynamic between us is if I am scared or tender or overwhelmed or dysregulated as the child, I instinctively trust that my caregiver will be able to respond to me in a way that helps me feel safer and more regulated and more clear. That’s what we’re looking for.

So as a parent, we can kind of ask ourselves the questions. Am I responsive? You know, when my child seeks me out, am I available? Or am I like stuck on my phone 24/seven or stuck in my anxiety at such a level that I’m really not available to them? And I kind of brush them off. Am I warm in my responses? Am I able to understand that, man, it’s hard to be a kid and to feel scared, even if I know that little boy does not deserve their skepticism. I also know they’re four years old and they haven’t yet figured out how to deal with all the different people they encounter in the world. And then, you know, the sense that we are predictable, so they can generally predict what our reaction will be, what our boundary will be, what our warmth will be. That cultivates this deep sense of trust that we can be there for them when they need us.

Katie: That makes sense. And I love that the core principles of this seem to be things like responsiveness and compassion and predictability and not perfection. I think moms, especially, we can often be so hard on ourselves when we are not constantly regulated. And I’ve also had other people come on this podcast to talk about nervous system health in general and how even within ourselves, it seems like there’s some misunderstandings of what nervous system health is and how that doesn’t actually mean that we’re calm all the time. It means that we have appropriate nervous system responses, and we let those things process through our body.

And so obviously, when I heard that, I was saying the same would be true for our children. A metric of them having a regulated nervous system would not be that they never get angry or they never lose their temper or they never cry. It would actually be that they can have a healthy response in a safe place for those experiences and that they know that we’re there for them after that.

I also am curious about the repair part of that, because also as moms, of course, none of us are perfect. There are going to be times when we don’t do this exactly the way we hope we would. But I’ve heard from other parenting experts as well, like, it’s not that it’s important that we never make mistakes. It’s actually sometimes more strengthening of the bond if we have a non-perfect interaction with our kids and then we either apologize for that, we make sure we repair that relationship that can actually lead to a stronger bond long term. But I would love to hear your insight on that from the attachment style perspective of this. And if there are anything in particular we can do when either our child has been really dysregulated and we didn’t handle it the way we hoped or we were dysregulated, like, how do we then build and repair and strengthen the bond after that?

Eli: I have a former mentor. Her name was Dr. Karen Purvis, who used the metaphor of attachment as a dance, which I love. Because when we dance, we go in, we go out, there’s a back and forth. And the center of it is the stuff we’re doing together, we’re connected. But, you know, sometimes the dance involves a twirl all the way away, or we, you know, separate for a minute, and then we come back together.

According to, this is my favorite like research reveal of all times. According to an incredible data by Dr. Ed Tronick, who did some longitudinal work, he created something called the still face experiment. A secure and regulated child caregiver system is in tune and that kind of sense of synchronicity and connection 30 to 50% of the time. That’s an incredible number. I joke that as parents, we’re graded on a curve, you know, no one’s getting an A. And so, you know, in order to get a passing grade, you just have to get above 30%. Like, thank goodness. There’s no one out there like throwing the curve off. Like this is something that we do at a human level. And I think that’s really important for our kids to see, because as our kids grow up, we will be the models they have for partnership and parenthood. And so if we were Zen all the time and never had a fight, never had a went in other direction, you know, what would that mean for them? Like what an incredible amount of pressure that is and anxiety. I like to say that an emotionally well child is not always well-behaved. And a child who is always well-behaved is not usually emotionally well.

And that’s true for grownups too, you know, a well-regulated parent is not constantly in Zen. I don’t know how that would happen. I mean, I have a tremendous amount of privilege. I have education. I have the ability to take care of my family financially. I’m a white cisgendered woman in the world. Like, and it’s still really stinking hard some days. So thank goodness this is not a perfection game. This is about being a good enough caregiver. So we’re showing up enough of the time that our children can sense we can be there for them. And when we’re off the tracks, that we are the leaders in repair. That we come back around.

I mean, I did this literally yesterday. I had like the grumpiest night. Like could not handle my son badgering me for boundary pushes. Like, I just was like, I said no. And you keep asking and it’s making me lose my nutter. It’s because it’s the end of summer, school starting soon. And, but I had to come back around at the end of the evening and just wrap him up in my arms and go, I’m so sorry, kid. I had no patience. There was no buffer and I was really harsh. And he goes, you think? But it’s not wrong. Like that’s true. It’s true. I was dysregulated, but I can do that. And he, he trusts my repair. You know, he leans into my arms and we read together and my kissed him good night. And this morning he wakes up and we’re back into a place of trust and rhythm because I was able to acknowledge and change gears, you know, and he could feel that from me.

Katie: And I think that’s so important too, as we talked about in the first episode of how often our childhood relational patterns can show up in some form in our adult relationships. So I can imagine for him, that means hopefully in his adult relationships, he won’t necessarily be afraid of conflict or if things don’t always go right because he’s learned there can be repair and it can heal. And that’s not a sign that the relationship is broken. That’s actually a sign that the relationship is getting stronger. And there’s like, you talked about curiosity there, there’s repair, there’s responsiveness, even if it’s not done with always a calm nervous system on the first try. So I love that. I think that’s so hopeful for parents.

I’ve also, I would be curious, like I’ve seen different things floating around social media of sort of affirming things that kids need to hear from parents. And I’m curious from an attachment perspective, are there sort of any like key ideas of things, maybe not exact phrases, but like things kids need to hear from their parents at different times? Like I know I asked because I know adult men, especially who seem to have this deep craving for their dad to say he’s proud of them and they never received that in their life. But I’m curious, like, are there things that we as parents can make sure that probably we already feel, but that we communicate to our kids that help them have that secure attachment and to feel it?

Eli: Yes. Well, first I want to acknowledge every child is different. So what a particular child longs for is going to be unique in general, but also in relationship to each parent, right? So a child may not be longing for a mother to say, I’m proud because they can feel it from their mother, but they can’t feel it from their father. So they’re longing for that from him, right? Or you, maybe there’s a father that’s very good at saying I’m behind you. I got you, but they long to hear that from their mom.

I would say if we were to put oversimplify this, because it’s so helpful to oversimplify things in the, in the land of parenting, when everything feels so overcomplicated, I would say, does your child have a message from you that you find their presence delightful? I think children need to know I delight in you. I find your nearness to be a joy and that doesn’t have to be 24/seven. Right. Like your kids can be annoying, but when they walk in the room, when they come home from school, when they walk in the room, when they come home in the morning, I call that lighting up. Our kids need to know that their presence affects our joy, that we are glad they are there. So I think in the most simple terms, it’s, I’m so glad you’re here, kid.

And how are you saying that to them at bedtime? I lay next to my kids and I say things like, I’m so lucky that I get to be this close to you, or I’m so lucky that you’re my kid. Oh my gosh. I just love snuggling with you. Whatever messages feel authentic to you, what that communicate I love having you near me. That’s huge. That helps kids feel worthy, feel belonging. It gives them identity.

The other thing is I got you. I got you is I am going to be here for you when you feel like you are untethered and floating off into space, or you are down in the depths and don’t know how to get back. I got you. Your pain is not a burden to me. It is a honor and a privilege that I get to help you through whatever sticky, tricky, painful things life throws at you. I got you.

I believe in you. This is especially important as kids are developing independence and different things. It’s not just, I got you. It’s also, you got this, you got this. Kids need to know that we believe in their capacity, even if they are just learning something. You know, sometimes we have to tell our kids, I think of like teaching them to ride a bike. It’s the simplest example. You know, at first in your head, you’re like, do they got this? But they need you to hear, they need to hear us say, you got this, I’m behind you. And that confidence is what helps them feel a little more confident to then put those motions together and start to figure out how to pedal. And they need to hear that from us, even in friendship dynamics that are complicated, in their academic process. You got this does not mean I think you’re going to succeed instantly and always. That’s not what it means. It means you have what it takes to learn. And we all do. We’re wired for learning. That’s part of the human makeup, just like we’re wired for attachment.

And then I’m sorry. Every kid needs to hear a parent say, I’m sorry, because we need to normalize the process of apologizing so that it doesn’t feel so filled with shame, right? We need less people in the world who are band standing their, you know, righteousness and their rightness and more people who are able to go, hey, I’m so sorry I didn’t actually say the thing you needed me to say or hear the thing you needed me to hear. So that there’s less defensiveness in the human fabric.

So if you are saying, I’m so glad you’re here, I got you, you got this, and I’m sorry, those are four really powerful things that will impact your dynamic with your kids over time.

Katie: I love that list. And I love the idea of like modeling those because I think as parents, when we model something, we give them permission to do that same thing or to apologize in their own relationships or to be open to apologies, even from authority figures in relationships later on. I also love that reinforcing that they’ve got it, not meaning that they’re going to figure it out the first time, but that we have faith in their ability to figure it out. I’ve tried really hard with my kids, even when they were little and learning things like walking or climbing trees to not be like, oh, and, you know, transfer fear to them, but ask them like, what’s your plan? And let them think through what their plan was and listen, or tell them like, I have faith that you can figure this out, but what’s your plan? And just like letting them, as you said, age appropriately, like learn to figure those things out without me stepping in and saving or guiding or taking over the situation.

And as you were explaining that, I could be thinking of ways this would relate, of course, to my next question, which is, are there ways we can encourage our kids to open up, especially about hard topics and especially at different ages? And I can imagine that that list you just gave us would really help build a strong foundation for that. Because I’m thinking even as an adult, if I’m in a relationship where I feel that someone has got me and that they know I’ve got it and that they are willing to, like, I’m already much more willing to open up in that relationship. So I can only imagine for kids, those factors come into play as well. But I’m navigating now having everything from young kids to teenagers. And while the young kids love to talk to me all day long, I find teenagers don’t necessarily want to just talk all day. And the conversations with them where they really open up are more rare. So are there things we can do to encourage kids to feel safe opening up about even the hard things at different ages?

Eli: Yes. I love how my cat is currently trying to open up to me as we podcast. She’s like, I’ve got things to say. The key in the adolescent years is to understand a couple of things. One, the adolescent brain is going through a tremendous transformation. There are incredible new connections and new ways of functioning physiologically in the brain that are happening that make it hard for teenagers to regulate in the ways they might have learned how to regulate during middle childhood and are actually affecting how they perceive the whole world.

And some of this is really important stuff because it’s helping them learn to create close relationships with their peers. We call this attachment transfer as a stage of development. So when our kids are young, we are the central primary place they want information, advice, and support. We are their primary attachment figures. But as they enter into adolescence, there is a shift in how primary we are. So we do still tend to be the place they want to go around the really big stuff, something really awful happening, there’s still I want my mom or my dad or my caregiver.

But in the smaller stuff, they’re starting to use their peers for support. So something happens in a romantic partnership that they want or have or whatever, they might come to us, but they’re going to come to us maybe after they’ve already gone to a couple of friends because they want their peers information on the situation. So I would say the key as a caregiver of a teen is, don’t take this personally. And the more we take it personally, the more we push them away because we’re, we feel rejected or the more, the more we try to pull them close because we feel rejected, then now we’re in conflict with this developmental need they have. And that, that makes our relationship trickier. And that makes them less likely to open up to us because they don’t know what type of interpretation we’re going to make on the situation.

So be steady and be available, you know, when they do call, when they do reach for you, drop everything. That’s your moment. So what’s hard is you don’t have that repetition, the luxury of the repetition when they’re younger. Mama play with me. Mama play with me. Mama play with me. It’s like, okay, I’m going to hit two out of six of these today. And that’s going to be probably pretty good, but I’m going to have these six opportunities. So if I can’t hit these four because of whatever, whereas with our teens, if it’s like, hey, you want to go get our nails done? You know? And you’re like, oh, I got some work to do. Could we do it later? They’re like, no, I’ve got something else later. And you’re like, oh, I missed it. So do what you can. And this is, there’s privilege involved in what I’m talking about. Like sometimes we just can’t. Do what you can when you can to respond when they do reach.

Work on not taking it personally, that they’re changing the way they relate to you. And I would say, start to think of yourself as more of a consultant at that stage of life. So early on, like you’re the guide, you’re determining the route, you’re determining the meals, right? Like, how are we going to get from here? Their more increased independent stage, they’re taking on a lot of those roles. And it doesn’t mean we cease to need to have our own boundaries and our own limits and our ideas of what they should and shouldn’t do. It means we want to offer that with a little more respect for the fact that they’re learning how to do themselves.

And so if a child is going through something, we want to be slow to advice. We can still give advice, but we want to start with asking lots of questions, not interrogative questions, not like, well, so where are you going to be? What are you going to do? Who’s going to be there? More like, okay, so you’re feeling like this is a really important choice. You want to make it. Fill me in more. I want to hear more about what this means. This is really important to you. So it’s really important to me. And then we can nuance as the conversation goes on. So I can see why that sounds awesome. The grown-up lady, the mid-40-year-old mama in me wants to also just say a couple of things, and maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’ll be different for you, but here are some things I’d worry about. I want to put those in your pocket and you can decide whether you carry those worries with you or not. But I think maybe you should consider blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then we’re cultivating a sense between us and our growing children that our goal is not to control them. It’s to support them. And while we have thoughts on what they should and shouldn’t do, we also recognize that at the end of the day, their life is their life and they’re going to be cultivating what happens for them. And that way, when things go wrong, they’re more likely to come back to us and say, that thing you said might happen happened. And we’re like, oh no, I was really hoping that wouldn’t happen. I’m so sorry that happened because they’re not anticipating judgment or reaction or a clamping down on our part. You did what, right? Who wants to go tell someone about the way they messed up when the anticipation is punishment or judgment or a sense of being ridiculed for their mistake, right? That’s not who we want to go to. We want to go to the person who can give us compassion, understanding. And possible steps forward.

Katie: That makes sense. I’m also curious, is there, are there anything, anything that comes to mind for parenting advice that’s sort of widely spread that you wish parents would just sort of forget about or that you feel like is misguided? I know there are now so many parenting accounts floating around on the internet and I see so much kind of conflicting advice floating around out there, but that are, are there any that are top of mind that you think it would be better for parents to just completely forget about?

Eli: I love this question. It’s so funny because one of the things I’ve done in my work is I’ve tried to stay really focused on here’s something you can do instead of adding to the noise of don’t do this and don’t do that. That like, I think there’s so much parenting anxiety out there in the world. So as opposed to all of your other questions, this one is a little more like, oh, what do I think? I mean, I think probably the worst piece of parenting advice that I think still has legs in the world, the idea that if we want our kids to be tough, we need to be tough on them. And what gets misconstrued in that logic, there is some logic there. I get that because I also do think that permissive parenting and not allowing our children to face growth opportunities is a humongous problem. And can result in a lack of resilience.

So we want our kids to be resilient. How do we actually do that? I think you need to ignore the advice that says basically like give in to everything that they want and need because you want them to trust you. Well, that won’t make them trust you. That will make them feel very powerful and that’s not actually healthy for their development. And then I think you also want to ignore the other side of the coin that says, you know, you show them you’re the boss. You say no, they shut down. You know, you say jump, they jump. You’re going to make sure they know how to like exactly respond, like an obedience mindset.

The middle kind of zone of this is I want my kids to know I am soft and tender in response to their internal states, but I’m also clear and sturdy in response to the limits I am putting in my environment that they need based on their development. You know, so my two-year-old cannot cut fruit with a regular kitchen knife. That’s, that’s a no. Even when she wants to, I’m thinking of one of my girls had this one day where it’s like the dishwasher had swung open. We had like a faulty dishwasher door for a while. And she’d like gotten in and like raided the knives. And she like comes running around the corner with two knives straight up in her hands, just full of joy. Well, that’s, that’s a limit. Like, it doesn’t matter how much joy she was having and carrying, you know, kitchen knives around. It’s a, no, you’re two years old. You cannot carry the kitchen. It’s right.

So I can have compassion and I can have clarity on limits. And I think there’s a lot of advice that swings kind of in those two far reaching directions. Like you got to show your kids, they can’t, you know, do put that shit on your blah, blah, blah. Or like, oh no, what should we do about the knives? Like so passive that like someone loses an eye. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, there has to be this middle space where I like to think of it as deep authority, as opposed to like escalating with authority. It’s like, I have a deep sense that I love you. You are loved. Your feelings matter, but they don’t dictate the limits, the environments, and the structure. You can feel sad about the fact that I’m not going to let you have caffeine until you’re older. You can feel sad about that. And I’m looking at the research and I am making that choice and that decision on your behalf. And I’m not going to change my mind just because it’s, it’s dysregulating to you because you’re going to need to grow and learn to tolerate limits.

Katie: Oh, I love that distinction. And you already answered my next question, which was finding that balance between being too strict and too permissive. And it seems like there are opposing camps of that kind of in the world right now. And I think that was such a beautiful answer. I also would guess all of us are constantly learning and parenting. We hopefully do better as we learn more. And for parents who haven’t always had this type of parenting style and maybe don’t feel like they have a secure bond with their kids at various ages, is it ever too late to switch or modify our parenting style? And any advice for doing that at different ages of our children?

Eli: I love that question. It’s never too late. I have worked with individuals, adults, children, you know, all sorts of different ages and stages of life for the last 20 years of my clinical career. Not quite 20. I’m a rounder upper. It’s like 18, but the human experience of longing for our parents to come into reconnection with us, it really doesn’t go away. I mean, I’ve worked with people in their seventies whose parents have passed away, who are still longing and craving for one of their parents to say something like, I’m proud of you. I adore you. You’re a good kid. You know, there’s this like long-term desire to have a wellness in our relationship with our parents.

And so as parents, we can, at any point in our journey, pause and take an account. How am I? How have I been? And it doesn’t have to be a shame account. It’s not, I failed my kids because here’s my guest. My guess is you did the very best you could with what you had. I mean, you’re listening to a podcast on parenting, right? For heaven’s sake, you’re trying. And there is gold in taking a pause and making a U-turn. So I call that the U-turn, you know, and sometimes we’ve been driving down that road for many, many miles. And sometimes we’ve been just driving down it for 30 minutes, but like, if you’re going the wrong direction, it’s always wise to turn around.

And that turnaround might take time. You know, if your kids are in their thirties and there’s been a lot of mistrust created, they might not be open to that engagement until there’s, you know, proof in the pudding for a long period of time that you aren’t just trying to manipulate or something that they’re perceiving. But I would say the U-turn is good for you and it is good for them. And in my life, my mom started her U-turn when I was nine years old. And it took some time to turn the whole ship around because there was a lot going on. She had PTSD and bipolar two disorder. And my dad has a drinking problem. And there was a lot of stuff going on in our world. So it wasn’t like, oh, she decided to make a change and all of us were like, oh, and we’re all secure. I mean, there was a process to that. But she set the stage for me to understand myself in a very different way, which set the stage for me to go to therapy myself, which set the stage for me to become a therapist and eventually to be here running my mouth on the internet and on podcasts and in books. Because she, one very particular day went and checked herself into a hospital actually. And that’s not as extreme as what most people need for their U-turn, but she needed that for her U-turn. She went, I either get help or I keep going down this road. And she went and got help.

So, I mean, it makes a difference. It made a huge difference in my life. And if you are at any stage in parenting, I wrote Raising Securely Attached Kids with all stages of parents in mind. How can you apply these principles, whether your kids are, you know, in utero or just a thought in your mind, or they are all the way, you know, into having their own kids and adulthood. Like we can always work on being more regulated, more responsive, and more sturdy in ourselves so that our kids can rely on us effectively.

Katie: Love that. And like I said, I hope we get to have more future conversations because I feel like this topic is so important. And I will link to your books in the show notes. I very much have enjoyed the ones that I’ve read and all the resources you have online. But for people listening who want to go deeper on this topic, where can they find you online and keep learning from you?

Eli: Thank you. Yes, you can find me running my mouth on social media, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. The handle is @attachmentnerd. And my website is attachmentnerd.com. And I offer a brand new, actually recently released, I’m so excited about it, six-week parenting program to help folks really focus on learning the relational aspects of parenting. How do I heal some of my attachment patterns and then learn how to offer my kids secure patterns so that they inherit those patterns and don’t have to work for them? And I’m so excited to see all of you in all of those places, books, program, social media. Come hang out with me.

Katie: Awesome. Well, Eli, this has been such a joy. Thank you so much for your time and for the work that you do and for being here today.

Eli: I loved being here with you. Thank you for having me.

Katie: And thank you, as always, for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.