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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
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This podcast is brought to you by Jigsaw Health, who you might have heard me talk about before. But today I want to talk about their new collagen. And in my house, we go through a lot of collagen. I consume quite a bit for keeping my joints and tendons healthy as I get older and work out a whole lot. And also for the potential anti-aging benefits as I’m now aware of this as I get older. Theirs is really cool and unique because it uses three clinically tested bioactive collagen peptides that are clinically tested to promote the growth and healing of new cartilage. They’re clinically tested to support mobility in healthy individuals. They’re clinically tested to have a positive influence on cartilage tissue regeneration, bone density, and to stimulate healthy skin metabolism and promote firmer and smoother skin, which is one of the benefits I’m after. And they’re clinically tested to promote growth and health of fingernails, which I noticed very rapidly when I started increasing my collagen production. I love that theirs is unflavored and dissolves really easily. So it’s easy to put into almost any food or drink or even my morning coffee. And it has 17 grams of protein per serving. It’s of course grass fed, and it includes hyaluronic acid, which we’re seeing increasing studies talk about from an anti-aging perspective. I keep a canister of it in my kitchen and my kids will add to smoothies or to food. I add it to most drinks that I consume. And you can find out more or get your own by going to wellnessmama.com/go/jigsawcollagen.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and I’m back with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon to talk about how to build anti-aging muscle mass and a new way to think about muscle and obesity and so much more. And I love her muscle-centric approach and how she reframes things like with obesity, it’s not that we have too much fat, it’s actually the problem that’s a symptom of having unhealthy skeletal muscle. And this episode in particular talks about very practical strategies for what to do about that particular situation, how to build muscle as we age instead of losing it and so much more. She is so well-researched. I love her perspective on this. She is both a board-certified doctor and has an additional seven years of research and training in nutrition. So she is one of the voices in the medical world that is also extremely well-trained in nutrition and has done a lot of clinical research and follow-up as well as thousands of inpatient hours to really refine and hone the message that she shares today along with some very practical resources and takeaways that you can implement immediately. So let’s join Dr. Lyon. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, welcome back. Thanks for being here again.
Gabrielle: Hi, Katie. Thanks for having me.
Katie: Well, in our recent interview that I’ll include in the show notes, you made a tremendous case for why skeletal muscle is so important and vital, especially as we age, and a lot of the science and understanding behind that. And in this episode, I’m really excited to go deep on how to actually build this anti-aging muscle, and especially with the perspective of most of the people listening, like you and like me are moms, and have a lot of demands on our time. But I love your mission and your focus on muscle-centric medicine, and I think it would be incredible to just have this wave of moms who have all this skeletal muscle and are absolutely just thriving and setting that example for our kids. So to start here, I know there’s a lot of factors that come into play, and also that there’s some major ones that can make a big difference. So can we talk about, from all the research you’ve done, what are some of the biggest needle movers when it comes to building healthy skeletal muscle?
Gabrielle: Hands down, you have to train with this idea of not getting better at exercise. The number one thing is that we are training for life to get better and stronger at our life. And because of that, we have to follow a plan and a program and measure outcomes. We’re not going to just go into the gym and decide, well, I’m just showing up and that’s good enough. We’re not going to do that. We are strong moms and we’re going to set an example and we’re going to lead our family and the way in which we’re going to do that is we’re going to become very structured.
Let’s say you are a mom who is just getting back into working out. You have so many demands on you. Here’s what you’re going to do. You’re going to start with body weight exercises three to four days a week. Number one, you’re going to figure out where you’re at. How many squats can you do? How many pushups can you do? How many lunges can you do? Where is your baseline? How many pull-ups can you do? Once you determine what your baseline is, you’re going to commit to three days a week, simple bodyweight exercises, and you’re going to improve. Whether that is you’re going to improve by the number of pushups you can do or the number of squats you can do. And then you’re going to set the goal three days a week. Resistance exercise.
The next thing that I’m going to ask you to do as you continue to build up on that is throw in one day a week of some kind of high-intensity interval training. This will give you the biggest bang for your buck. You are going to hit 20. It could be 20 minutes. Twenty minutes of high-intensity intervals, you’re going to deter. And there’s many different ways to do it. You can Google high-intensity interval program. You know, you’re going to work with what you have. We’re going to eliminate any excuse, whether you have an airdyne bike or maybe you have a rower, maybe you’re just going to do high knees. It doesn’t matter, but you are going to figure out what your program is going to be. And I also include all of this in my book. I have different templates and you’re going to add that in. So that one day of high-intensity interval training.
Now, if you wanted to get crazy with it, you know that you’re spending a lot of time with your kids. Include them in any kind of slow, steady-state cardio that you do. I don’t actually do a lot. And I can tell you my program as a working mom of two kids. But if you have time, and let’s say your kids don’t go to school and they’re at home. You’re going to include them in any kind of steady state. So you’re going to go for walks. You’re going to throw them in the stroller. They’re going to go on the bike, et cetera. Just going to take action. But with taking action, my job is to tell you that we must improve. So we must set a goal. We’ll do a certain cycle for six weeks and then we’ll progress it.
Katie: I love your approach. And like you said, you have so many resources in the book and on your website. So everybody doesn’t have to understand all of these pieces. You actually give a blueprint for exactly what to do. But I love this because it makes it seem doable. And I know from learning from you and then when I’ve delved into the research on this, that one high-intensity day, so for me, that’s actually like sprinting because that’s a skill I’m working on, it is absolutely incredible to me what the data says about how big of an impact that can have metabolically. And even like, I know we create more growth hormone from that kind of thing. There’s so many anti-aging pieces to that, to both the resistance training and that high-intensity day. And as an example, I always tell people I work with some professional athletes. Look at the sprinters especially and the amount of muscle mass that they have, even upper body when upper body is not their focus. And it’s because they’ve optimized some of those factors that you’re talking about. But can you speak to some of the hormone benefits of this and the anti-aging benefits of incorporating those specific ones you mentioned?
Gabrielle: You also bring up a really great point, this idea of sprinting and moving the body in ways we really get away from those kind of functional movements. That’s something that I didn’t mention, and I really should have is one of the ways that I choose exercises is I think about what am I going to have to do with and in life. So I will walk kettlebells. I will work on strength as well as grip strength and muscular endurance. And I choose actions that, for example, a kettlebell swing or a goblet squat or an overhead press, all ways of moving. And, you know, maybe I’ll do a chop and I’ll move in different directions.
So what happens when you train? So, yes, as you alluded to, there is an increase in growth hormone and testosterone and those may be short-term. But over time, what happens is, is as you’re exercising, you are sensitizing muscle in the moment to glucose. So you don’t require insulin to now utilize glucose. And there’s the training in the moment, and then there’s the 24-hour effect. Your body is more efficient following a high-intensity interval training over the next 24 hours. And that’s incredible. The other thing is that, again, your body then also releases these myokines. So you don’t just utilize substrates or fuel like, fatty acids and glucose and muscle glycogen. But as you’re releasing these myokines, your body is now having crosstalk. So your brain is getting better. Your heart is getting better. Your immune system is getting better. Because again, think of the skeletal muscle system as the ultimate communicator. You are contracting your skeletal muscle and it’s having an interface, a teleline of communication with all of these different organ systems. And you are choosing to do that. You can’t tell your heart to beat or your thyroid to release thyroid hormone, but you can sprint and or you can pick up a kettlebell and do five different swings, et cetera. And you are now taking immediate action that is causing your body to now have an intercommunication crosstalk. And that is really extraordinary.
And the data supports that, again, the utilization of skeletal muscle. You know, women are different in the way that we are going to have a decrease in hormones, no matter what. Whereas men, men will not necessarily have a decline in testosterone. And I don’t know if this was like a design flaw or what. But women, we are all at some point going to go through menopause. And for a body composition aspect, the most important thing a woman can do is to do resistance training and high-intensity interval training for her body composition and the maintenance of her skeletal muscle. We talk about osteoporosis and sarcopenia. Well, an indicator of osteoporosis is going to be just one indicator is going to be a loss of muscle mass. And these are things that are going to be of concern to all women.
Katie: And you mentioned grip strength. I love that as well because there is, from my understanding, a link between grip strength and longevity. It’s not a perfect correlation, but there is a link there. And I know there’s even now tools on Amazon where you can test your grip strength. And I’ve seen my grip strength go up as I’ve done a lot of these types of training that you talk about. But I love that because it’s a metric to focus on that actually does have a nervous system link and a potential longevity link.
You’ve also mentioned the word myokines a couple of times, and I would love, I would guess hopefully most people have heard that term, but can you define what that is? And also talk a little bit about the neurotransmitters that are released from exercise. Because I love seeing these headlines about exercise essentially being an anti-depressant, anti-aging drug. There’s so many benefits to it when you understand all those cascades that are happening.
Gabrielle: Yeah. So myokines are these cytokines that are actually synthesized and released by, are you ready for this? Myocytes, cells of the muscle during muscular contraction. And they’re amazing. They’re implicated in the regulation of metabolism in muscle locally and systemically. There are over 600 different myokines. Probably the most famous one is interleukin-6. And you’re probably thinking, well, interleukin-6, that’s a cytokine. It is a cytokine. But it is also a myokine. And what is so interesting is this is actually relatively new science. So the term myokine came about in 2003. It’s not that long ago. If you think about how further along, we are in the science.
And again, there is a whole host of different myokines, but I’ll give you an example. There’s something called irisin and cathepsin B that help influence the release of something called brain-derived neurotrophic factor. This is probably one of the most famous myokines that helps regulate neuronal survival and plasticity and growth, which is incredible. And ultimately, brain function and cognitive ability can decline with age, but it doesn’t necessarily have to. And our biggest influence on this is really twofold. It’s number one, metabolic regulation, which is having a healthy body composition. And number two, understanding the role of exercise and the release of these myokines and how that creates this inter-organ crosstalk.
Katie: And you also mentioned the term sarcopenia and that concept that we do naturally tend to lose muscle as we age, especially if we’re not using it. It very much seems to be a use it or lose it. But to what degree is sarcopenia naturally going to happen and unavoidable versus how much of that do we have within our control to offset?
Gabrielle: I am so grateful for the frame up on this. Just to put it in perspective. Sarcopenia classified as a disease and sarcopenia is defined as the decrease in muscle mass and function, came about in 2016. It finally got a diagnosis in 2016. How behind the curve are we? 2016. The thought is that sarcopenia is a disease of aging. I would argue that sarcopenia is not a disease of aging. It is a disease of inactivity, and it likely begins the moment we are inactive, and that could easily be in our 20s and 30s.
This discussion about cardiovascular disease and Alzheimer’s. We all agree now that it begins much earlier. It could begin in our 30s, the beginning of cardiovascular disease. The same goes with the health of our skeletal muscle if we are not training. And so sarcopenia, is this an inevitable phenomenon? I don’t necessarily think so, but we don’t have large cohort studies that show very active individuals. And again, it’s very difficult to study this. But I will say that in the literature, it’s estimated that an individual will lose between 3 and 8% of their muscle mass per decade. I am guessing that if an individual is inactive, it is likely higher than that. Again, there are some restrictions with the way in which we measure skeletal muscle mass. I think as we continue to measure it directly, we will see that it is much more rapid than 3 to 8% per decade, which is shocking.
Katie: Well, and hopefully the inverse is also true that by doing the right types of training effectively, we can also slow or drastically reduce that number. I know personally, my goal, especially having not really trained like an athlete in my younger years and doing that now is actually to get stronger each decade. So hopefully you’ll have, even if we don’t have large cohort studies, maybe there will be a groundswell of women who are doing this on their own that give us anecdotal data over time to see if that can actually shift. I know also from following your work for a long time that the training is a big component, and that protein and diet is also a big component and that you need both for this to be effective. And anytime I get a chance to talk about protein and women, especially, I love to do it. So can you walk us through the how-to, the specifics, and the importance of protein for this equation to work?
Gabrielle: Yes, ladies, listen up. Dietary protein is your most important macronutrient. There’s a lot of information in the health and wellness space that talk about fat and carbohydrates. And I would say dietary protein is the black sheep of the macronutrient family. Nothing is going to be more important as a woman that is maturing than maintaining dietary protein. To put it into perspective, the average woman gets around 60-ish grams of dietary protein a day. The average male gets around 100 grams of dietary protein. The current RDA of protein is set for the minimum at 0.8 grams per kg. So for example, if a woman was 115 pounds, then that turns out to be like 45 grams of protein a day. That is the minimum to prevent deficiencies. If you want to age well and you want to maintain the health of skeletal muscle, you should be shooting for one gram per pound ideal body weight. So if you are 150 pounds and your ideal body weight is 120 pounds, you definitely want to shoot closer to that 120-pound range.
And I will tell you this, that the quality of the protein matters. Typically, quality of protein is defined by these amino acids. Dietary protein is made up of 20 different amino acids, even though we just say protein. Nine of which are essential, meaning we must get it from the diet. And it is the spectrum of the essential amino acids that define the quality of the protein. And animal-based products have the ratios of essential amino acids that are critical for supporting our muscle health. And especially as we age because typically your overall calorie consumption goes down, and while I talk about protein because dietary protein is necessary to stimulate muscle, and required for the rebuild and growth of all proteins in the body, the quality of it matters because there are other things that ride along with dietary protein, like iron. For women, 40% of pregnant women have some sort of anemia. The majority of that anemia is iron deficiency anemia. Bioavailable iron comes from things like red meat. These things are critical to understand, especially with the influence of all this information out there.
You know, I’ve been studying nutrition for 20 years. I studied seven years professional. So people will say, well, physicians don’t have professional nutrition training. I have seven years of professional nutrition training. And the context of dietary protein, plant and animal and these different types, it was not controversial when I was going through school. It really was, these are the high-quality proteins that you eat. These are the things that ride along with it, like creatine, B12, zinc, selenium, all which are very important for aging, for menstruating women, for pregnant women, and then for maintaining the health of skeletal muscle as individuals age. So high-quality protein. Things like beef, chicken, eggs, dairy, fish are all high-quality proteins. And I will say if you’re younger and you choose to be more plant-based, you certainly will get enough protein. Being plant-based, you’ll need to consume more. But my argument is that, it’s probably a combination of both animal and plant products. And it’s not just the protein. It’s also the bioavailable iron and all of the other things that ride along with it. I know it’s a very controversial topic.
Katie: It is. But I think also the nuance of this is important because maybe these are the missing pieces for some of the people listening. And I know before I found your work and before I started really delving into this, I thought I was consuming plenty of protein. And when I actually paid attention to it, I realized I was below the targets, even the mainstream targets, and that a lot changed when I made that a focus and just made it a priority to simply get enough dietary protein and to implement some of these types of training that you’re talking about.
I know in our first episode, we also touched on the motherhood aspect of this. And I think that’s another important point when it comes to protein consumption as well, because I see the stats on nutrition for children, especially in the US, and it’s pretty abysmal. But it seems like a lot of kids are not even hitting some of these minimum targets, and they’re building their lifelong skeletal muscle like you explained. So any tips for incorporating this on a family level and how you do this with your kids too?
Gabrielle: So you’re absolutely right. And number one, I started them very early. You know, there’s, you know, when you progress to soft foods, you’ll allow the children to kind of guide what they’re willing to eat. We started very early on with pureed liver and pureed meats, and they were able to tolerate it. And I think, again, starting early is very valuable and understanding that children are extraordinarily picky eaters, as we all know, but making available for them things that they’ll utilize. For example, we use a whey protein shake for the kids. There’s a company called Everest, and it’s for kids. They love it. There’s these little packets, and it’s clear. And, you know, it’s like a clear drink, and it is, whether it’s strawberry or orange flavored, we love it. I also have protein shakes available in the fridge, small, little, they taste like chocolate milk, protein shakes.
And I also teach them early on, like, hey, if you’re going to have breakfast why don’t we have some eggs? So we’re going to have some eggs because it’s going to help you grow big and strong. And then you can have some fruit. And, you know, we do a lot of combining. And we also lead by example. So if we don’t surround our holidays are not all about food, we don’t reward with food ever. It really is, food is about nourishment. It’s not about reward. It’s not about X, Y, and Z. But our children will have candy, right? So I’m not going to say, okay, you’re at school and everybody else gets a piece of candy, but you don’t have that. So again, I don’t want to create any kind of dysfunctional relationship with food for the children. But, you know, from a very practical aspect, we have beef sticks available. We have protein bars available. We have all of the kind of snack foods all have protein in it.
Katie: And I think that’s a great tip for adults too, especially if you’re learning to switch these things and you haven’t always eaten this way. Sometimes just having like good palatable protein sources can make all the difference in this shift. And I encourage women, especially if you’re not doing all the things that you’re talking about in this episode, at least give them a try for 30 or 60 days and notice if you feel a lot different in your energy levels. Because that was another thing I found when I actually started eating enough and then eating enough protein and then utilizing that by moving the right way was I had so much more energy. And I’ve shared this before, but I for years tried to lose weight. And in resolving my hormones and my trauma, it helped a lot. But I ended up realizing I needed to eat more than I was eating and especially more protein than I was eating. And I got leaner by eating more. And I think that paradox, especially like it can be a little scary to women to consider eating more, eating more protein or lifting really heavy. I know you’ve dispelled this in past episodes, but I want to just touch on this again. Like the women who have the fear of lifting something heavy and looking too muscular all of a sudden, I know I could say anecdotally from now trying very hard to get more muscular. It definitely does not happen overnight. And I do not by any means accidentally look like a bodybuilder. But can you speak to that? Just because I know that’s a fear for some women.
Gabrielle: It’s the number one fear. The number one fear for women is that once they start lifting, they’re going to become bulky. That will never happen. I have been trying to become bulky my whole life. And Katie knows me. I’m what, 5’1 and maybe 110 pounds. It’s not going to happen. The effort it requires to put on muscle mass, one must be very disciplined. You must be continuously exposing your body to a stimulus that demands growth. And again, as moms, we don’t sleep a lot. We know that sleep deprivation impairs muscle protein synthesis. It can impair muscle protein synthesis up to 18%. It is very difficult to put on muscle.
You are also not going to gain a lot of weight, if any weight at all, by consuming dietary protein. Calories in, calories out matter. But dietary protein, lean sources of dietary protein, number one, it’s very difficult to overeat. And number two, it’s very difficult to store. And oftentimes, we are under-eating protein. You have to recognize that the dietary protein numbers that we have are the minimum to prevent deficiencies. When you start fueling your body appropriately and training, you will see your body composition change. Your clothes will fit better. You will have more energy. If you nail your protein meal correctly, by the next meal, you will have more energy because you’ve balanced your blood sugar. When carbohydrates are controlled and you add in high-quality proteins, you will manage blood sugar regulation. You know, depending on the source, we’ll have a slow absorption. You will feel better. You’re providing your body with these amino acids that it needs. It is a necessary requirement. And dietary protein is the only macronutrient whose need changes as you age. You actually need more, not less, dietary protein.
Katie: Yeah, I think that shift alone has made such a profound difference in my physiology and how much strength I’m able to build. I also know that these changes can be difficult if you’ve never done them before and they don’t happen overnight. So I’m curious if you have any other advice for people who are struggling to make these changes. Maybe they cognitively understand the importance of building muscle and of eating protein and they’ve never done it before. And I know you also have plans in the book that help with this, but can you give any advice for people who truly are just beginning and want to see those benefits?
Gabrielle: The first thing that I would say is we’re not going to set a goal. People are going to be like, what? We’re going to actually set a standard for how we are going to execute. And your standard is going to be that you’re going to commit and you’re going to do what we talked about earlier. You’re going to train three days a week. You’re going to get your dietary protein in. It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it’s going to happen. And we’re not going to set weight goals. We’re going to set standards for the framework of operational life. And once we do that and we get into the rhythm of it, you’re going to know that Friday night, you’re going to want to go off your plan, but you’re going to pre-plan for your moments of weakness because you’ve set a standard for yourself.
You know, I’ve been a doctor since 2006. I have seen thousands of patients. And one of the best parts about being a physician that sees patients is over time, you see strategies that work for people. And again, this is a culmination of the most effective strategies that I have seen with my patients and in my own life is that you set a standard. Step one, set your standard and you’re going to execute off that standard. You are going to know your weaknesses where you’re going to say, I’m too tired. I just want this piece of cake that my daughter has, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You’re not going to also overthink it.
And finally, you’re not going to be distracted by all influence and external information. Distraction is a strategy that allows people to not execute. They use distraction as a strategy to not execute because you’ll say, well, I’m just so confused. After the discussion with Katie and myself, commit to this for three months. You can join our community. We have the Forever Strong community. We have coaches in there. I’m in there. Commit to it. Give us three months. Tune out the noise, set your standard, and execute.
Katie: And I think the encouraging part of this from reading your book too, is that like you said, in those three months, you might actually see some really incredible changes. Can you speak to how quickly the body is able to actually shift once we start making these changes and holding ourselves accountable and maybe share some case studies? Because I loved reading those stories of just how incredible the results can be.
Gabrielle: I mean, one bout of exercise, you’re already making changes. So it’s a win. One bout of exercise improves glucose, improves insulin immediately. That’s a win. You’re executing right away. It will take, you know, the first beginning parts of training are really this neurological adaptation. Your body has to get used to it. Your brain-body connection has to happen. But the reality is the moment you are exercising, you are beginning to improve your metabolic function. You’re beginning to utilize the marbled steak in your muscle. You’re beginning to improve all the metrics that you care about. Your sleep will likely get better. All of the things, your cortisol over time will likely get lower. All of the things that you care about will begin to shift immediately.
Also, if you are new to training, you are more likely to put on muscle mass quicker. Your results, you’ll actually see your results quicker. And again, I hesitate to speak in absolutes, but the data supports that as you begin to go from untrained to trained, your body will change much faster than you could imagine.
So let me give you an example. I had one woman. She’s a pretty high-powered lawyer, and she had tried every different diet you could imagine. When she came into my office, she must have had a stack of 15 books. And she’s like, I have another 30 at home. I’ve tried everything. You know, I am so confused. I have this stack of books. What am I supposed to do? We made it very simple. We prioritized her dietary protein. We restricted her carbohydrates because she was dealing with significant weight troubles at that time. We didn’t have her do this long steady-state cardio. We had her doing very targeted training. She had kids. She would go in, she allocated 45 minutes, three days a week to go in with a trainer. I recognize not everyone has access to a trainer, but nowadays everybody has access to programs. Highly focused resistance training with one day a week of high-intensity interval training. And she absolutely transformed her body. She wasn’t hungry. She didn’t struggle with emotional eating, which was amazing because it, we were feeding her. We weren’t restricting her. And so she was actually able to put on muscle and lose weight at the same time, which typically you want to pick one or the other. But just her transformation was extraordinary. She committed to it. She didn’t always feel like training, but she, over time, she’d be one of those people that said, I can never stop eating the carbs. I can never stop eating the sweets. But over time, because we increase her dietary protein, there’s something called the protein leverage hypothesis, where individuals will eat more food to try to get that protein need met. And because we had already given her the protein, she didn’t have this desire to constantly go feed or go search for food. She was really satiated. And that’s just one example of a transformative effect because ultimately what it gave her was it gave her freedom.
Katie: Yeah. And that mindset shift away from like depriving and avoiding food to like trying to actually nourish your body. I’ve learned like eating enough protein is actually something you do have to commit to and a goal in and of itself. Like you don’t accidentally eat too much protein in today’s world, but that making that a part of your daily habit is really transformative, like you said. And you mentioned, even if people don’t have access to a trainer, we all have access to programs because there’s so much information online that technology, I feel like while it can have its downsides, also has some huge advantages. Can you just speak to ways we can use technology to our advantage in making these changes, whether it be incorporating more protein or working out or whatever it is?
Gabrielle: Absolutely. You can always track your food. That’s very easy. 100% of people eat. So that is the low-hanging fruit. You might as well nail that. Track, don’t guess, understand where you are and where you want to get to. And you will find that as you increase your dietary protein, you’re not going to be hungry and you’re going to know exactly what you’re looking at and when you need to eat, what it should be. I will also say when you eat protein first, if you sit down for a meal and you eat your protein first, get that macronutrient before you are going for the other things.
Then the other thing is with technology now, there are a whole host. Like we have a video library I use. We have programs. I have a very dear friend, Don Saladino, has amazing programs. There are programs that you can purchase and then you can go online. You can get a visual of what the exercise is, what it’s supposed to look like. Gosh, when I was doing my book, I shot like 100 workout videos, 100 different videos of different exercises. But again, the thing that I caution people, I want to caution people is don’t get hung up on doing everything perfect. Just make sure that you have a plan and you’re executing. Obviously, you’ll build up slowly because you don’t want to hurt yourself. That’s the last thing that you want to do because then you’re out of the game. But again, online workout programs, group workout programs, there’s no excuse not to.
Katie: And on that note, I’ll link to, of course, the book and your podcast and your website and everything in the show notes. But can you let people know where to find some of these resources, whether it be the training, the food plans, all the things you have available?
Gabrielle: Yeah. We have a whole host of programs available on my website, drgabriellelyon.com. Also, when you join our community, we release special programs to the community. And that’s the Forever Strong community. You can find out all that information on the website. I have in the back of the book also exercises, exercise programs in the back of the book. A very great resource.
Katie: Amazing. Well, it is always such a joy to get to talk to you. Like I said in the beginning, I’m a huge fan of the work that you’re doing, and I love that you are a voice of this much needed information in the world. Thank you so much for all that you do, and especially for your time being here today.
Gabrielle: Thank you so much for having me.
Katie: And thanks as always to you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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