632: Dr. Amy Shah on Food Creates Mood, Dopamine Pathways, and Improving Your Gut

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

This podcast is brought to you by HigherDose, a new company I’ve found and I’m loving their products, especially their PEMF mats. They have a best-selling detoxifying Infrared Sauna Blanket, grounding Infrared PEMF Mats with 20 lbs of crystal therapy, and a rejuvenating Red Light Mask. Their sauna blanket has an amethyst layer to deepen benefits of infrared, a tourmaline layer that generates negative ions, a charcoal layer to bind to pollutants and amplify the detoxification process, and a clay layer which is balancing for the heat. I also love that the sauna blanket is compact and great for those who don’t have room or budget for a full sauna. For those of you who want to experience the benefits of infrared without the sweat, they also have a really cool Infrared PEMF Mat that comes in 2 sizes. It combines the powerful technology of infrared and healing crystals with PEMF, for an unbelievable recharging experience. I have this in my room and love using it before bed for improved sleep.
I also love their Red Light Mask, which boosts mood, stimulates collagen, activates glowing skin, reduces fine lines, and regenerates cells. Light therapy is a gentle, non-invasive treatment that mimics low-level wavelengths found in natural sunlight. Oh, and this mask is cordless and comes with a secure top strap so I can do other things while am getting my glow on! I most often use the mask while sitting on the PEMF mat and listening to a podcast or audiobook. They also have a whole line of supplements to maximize hydration and well-being. Check out all their products at HigherDOSE.com/mama. You can use promo code: MAMA15 at checkout to save 15% off site-wide.

This episode is brought to you by Hiya children’s vitamins… Typical children’s vitamins are basically candy in disguise and most brands on store shelves are filled with sugar, unhealthy chemicals, and other gummy junk growing kids should never eat. And this is why I like Hiya. Hiya makes children’s vitamins with zero sugar and zero gummy junk, yet it tastes great and is perfect for picky eaters. Hiya fills in the most common gaps in modern children’s diets to provide the full-body nourishment our kids need with a yummy taste they love.
It is manufactured in the USA with globally sourced ingredients each selected for optimal bioavailability and absorption. Hiya arrives straight to your door on a pediatrician-recommended schedule. Your first month comes with a reusable glass bottle your kids can personalize with stickers, then every month thereafter Hiya sends a no-plastic refill pouch of fresh vitamins — which means Hiya isn’t just good for your kids, it’s also good for the environment. You no longer have to worry about running out of your vitamins and they will automatically arrive when you need them. Go to hiyahealth.com/wellnessmama to save on your first month.

Katie: Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie, from wellnessmama.com. And this episode is all about why we crave what we crave, why we crave it, how food creates mood. We talk about dopamine pathways and a lot about gut health. And I’m here with my good friend, Dr. Amy Shah, who is a double board-certified medical doctor and nutrition expert, with training from Cornell, Columbia, and Harvard. And drawing from her background in internal medicine, and allergy and immunology, as well as her own wellness journey. She has dedicated her practice to helping her patients feel better and live healthier, through her integrative and holistic approach to wellness. She has been named one of the 100 women in wellness to watch, and she appears regularly on media across the country, as well as the national magazines. I will link to her website and her social media in the show notes. And she’s also the author of a new book, “I’m So Effing Hungry: Why We Crave What We Crave and What To Do About It,” which is released in February of 2023.
And we go deep on this topic today, talking about things like the hygiene hypothesis and what we might have gotten wrong. Why the gut works with the principle of take action first and motivation follows, and how to support our gut bacteria. The difference between hunger, cravings, and appetite. How cravings are connected to the dopamine pathway, and ways to help kids train positive pathways here to avoid cravings later in life. What hunger hijackers are, what psychobiotics are. Why our bodies are solar powered and why we need natural light, as well as an easy rule that she says really helps with sleep and energy. We talk about the super six foods, and the small change we can all make to stop being so hungry all the time. I always learn a lot from the Dr. Amy Shah. So without further ado, let’s jump in. Dr. Amy, welcome back.
Dr. Amy: Thank you so much for having me, Katie, back again. I love your show.
Katie: Well, I love chatting with you. You’re always such a fun guest. And I always learn so much from you. And it’s fun because we both share being a mom as well. And I feel like you are always so good at making sure everything we talk about is also relevant to families, and how do we implement this with our kids. And since most people listening are moms, I feel like you’re just such a fun guest to have on. And we’re gonna get to go deep on a lot of things related to food, and mood, and cravings today. But before we do, I have a note from your bio that you grew up in a town in India that was so rural, that there was actually a horse carriage to school. And I would just love to hear about this, because it seems like a quite stark contrast to the life you live now.
Dr. Amy: Yeah. I mean, I think it would be for most people. When I was a kid, in India, a lot of kids start school at, like, the age of two. There’s like preschool school options at that age. And we would gather up the people in the building, we’d wait downstairs. And I starkly remember sitting on the lap of an older child who was also traveling to school. And we’d go on a horse drawn carriage. I mean, it’s so bizarre to think that this was in our lifetime. And I remember one time getting lost, you know, on the way, when they dropped us all off. And it was such a remarkable experience because when I talk about gut brain connection, when I talk about nutrition, I think, like, it wasn’t too long ago that we were playing in the dirt, that we were, you know, exposed to so many different animals, and people, and really living in a way that seems to match our microbiome needs a little bit better. It wasn’t that long ago for most of us. And for me, it was really not long ago at all.
Katie: That’s so fascinating. And I actually love that as a jumping in point for what we’re going to talk about today. Because it seems like the microbiome component of this actually is a big one that’s not talked about probably nearly enough. And certainly in the last few years, we’ve become so obsessed with avoiding germs, and over-sterilizing and sanitizing everything. And that I wonder, have we kind of, like, swung the pendulum too far, in that we’re sort of, like, not exposed to enough of the normal types of bacteria that would be in our environment that actually help sort of code the immune system?
Dr. Amy: Yeah. Actually, Katie, you hit the nail on the head. It was originally called the hygiene hypothesis in the 80s. And now, it’s turned into kind of the microbiome hypothesis, which means that, our immune system that lives in our gut, you know, needs education. And from zero to five, we are getting educated about our future antibodies, what gut bacteria we need, what we need to learn. And if we’re not learning enough during that time, or if we’re being wiped out because of antibiotics, or chemicals, or etc., then we are not going to be able to build a strong immune system, strong microbiome. And that doesn’t just mean GI issues. Like, people are like, “Oh, your immune system will be weak or GI issues.” No, gut controls your mood. It controls your cognition. It controls your inflammatory diseases. So then we think about, oh, what is the impact of this on the rest of our lifespan? It’s huge.
Katie: That makes sense. I know I’ve heard the gut called the second brain. And I think some people have even argued that because of how much is created in the gut, it in some ways could be considered sort of like our first brain, like, the source of a lot of the things in neurotransmitters. But I know I’ve seen some reports as well about how we seem to, as a population, have a declining amount of diversity in our gut. And that this might be contributing to some of these problems. But I would guess, also, our microbiome and our gut bacteria are maybe influencing the foods we crave and the things we want in to some degree. And I know you can explain this really well.
Dr. Amy: Yeah. Actually, this is really the topic of my book, “I’m So Effing Hungry,” is really learning the crux of it. Why do we crave what we crave? And empowering people to say, “Hey, you can change that. You’re not just subject to what the companies want you to think, what the big media, big food wants you to do. You have control over it.” And I think that that’s the message that I wish I knew earlier, because this can change the trajectory of not only how we feel today and how we look today. So, it changes body composition, and your mood, and your energy levels. But then, you know, disease down the lines of diabetes, heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s, all of them are related to this gut brain connection. And so, learning why you crave what you crave and feeding that gut bacteria the right things, so that they in turn crave the right things, is the way to go. It’s almost like… Katie, have you ever heard of the saying, “Take action first and then motivation follows.”
And I always think like, that’s how the gut microbiome works. Like, once you start feeding the gut the food that grows a good gut bacteria, you start doing that things, like, getting sunlight, getting movement, living with circadian rhythms. All of a sudden, you start to get motivation from the bacteria themselves, who now want…who crave sunshine, who crave vegetables, who crave fruits. And so what you create is momentum after you take action. And so, I think it’s like the same as exercise or mindset, like, start taking the steps that you know that will get you there, and then the motivation will follow.
Katie: I love that. And it seems like even just being aware of that, we can understand how that can become a positive feedback loop or a negative feedback loop. So if maybe you’re stuck in the negative cycle of that, you might be craving things that aren’t good for you. But understanding that you can recode your gut bacteria, and that that’s going to be a process, but it’s going to have, you know, an ending time when it’ll get easier. And you’re not having to use as much willpower because your body is craving the good things. Versus then it becomes a positive feedback loop, where we’re feeding it positive things, it’s now craving good things, it’s easier to want better choices, etc. And I think this also brings me to a point of, can you help us understand the difference between actual hunger, and cravings, and appetite? Because I feel like those all sort of get used interchangeably, but they’re different.
Dr. Amy: Yeah. Absolutely. So, the real difference here is to think about the biological and evolutionary mechanisms, or reasons behind hunger versus cravings, for example. Hunger is a true physiological need for nutrients. We will die without food and water. That’s a basic need, right? What cravings are, are a biological mechanism to protect us in times of stress, in times of famine, from getting, you know, too hungry, from losing too many nutrients. So it’s a completely separate mechanism. It’s a neurological pathway that’s very different. The hormones are different. For example, hunger is really governed by leptin and ghrelin. So ghrelin is a hunger hormone. Leptin is a satiation hormone. Then there’s, like, neuropeptide YY, and CCK, and all these… They all kind of remind us to eat, that reminder gets stronger if we don’t eat for a while, that reminder is cyclical. So you might notice that you’re especially hungry at certain times of the day. And that’s because your ghrelin goes in cycles. But cravings is an entirely different pathway. And it’s so fascinating to me because it doesn’t just span food, it spans, you know, why we crave certain relationships, or toxic friendships, or video gaming, or porn.
And all of those things come from that craving pathway, which is our dopamine pathway. So there’s a pathway in our brain that I think people don’t understand is separate from hunger, that is actually driven by dopamine. So this pathway feels more like this. We get off this call, and you are craving this food so badly that you get in your car, you drive across town, and you get it. And then immediately after you get it, you get this mix of almost, like, discomfort and pleasure. It’s not just pleasure, it’s almost like a neurological excitatory response, where you’re almost, like, uncomfortable eating it, because it’s something that you wanted so badly. And that’s a craving. The difference here was, you got up out of your seat, took action. Like, dopamine is an action hormone. Like, it will motivate you to do good things or bad things, right? It’s one that makes you take action. It’s also one that that is so strong that when you fulfill that need, it’s almost like you haven’t fulfilled it fully. Like, you either keep wanting more or it’s a little bit uncomfortable. Dopamine was created, if you think about these pathways, were created to reinforce a behavior that would help you a feed yourself.
So, the way I describe it to people is, say thousands of years ago, you’re roaming through the forest and you come across a huge fruit tree. And it’s amazing, full of ripe fruit. You stop in your tracks, you gather up all that fruit, you eat it, you bring it back for your tribe or your family. And your brain encodes that experience. How you got there, what it looked like, where it was, the experience of it. So that in times of stress, famine, no matter, you know, you’re really having an issue, you remember that special fruit tree or the other fruit trees that could save you in those times, right? So, makes sense, dopamine is a motivator, it’s a pathway that helps us stay alive, right? It is one that keeps us in the pursuit of, is how I think of dopamine. So it can be really good, great motivator, right, or really bad. Because food companies know this pathway. You know, gaming companies know this pathway. They know that if you stimulate someone’s dopamine pathway, they are much more likely to go get that food than if you just give them something that is going to quench their nutrient pathways. So that’s kind of the basis of junk food. You know, junk food, ultra-processed food, lights up all of the centers in your brain. Dopamine’s being released, it’s like a dopamine explosion. So you can’t blame people for being…you know, seeking out those foods. It’s biologically an explosion in your brain that feels good.
Katie: And it seems like an important reframe that kind of puts you back in the driver’s seat when it’s not the story of just like, “Oh, I have no motivation and willpower. Why can’t I do this? Why is this so hard?” And you realize, I’m fighting a battle against genetically engineered things that are designed to, like, Jack up this dopamine pathway, and want me to keep craving it. And it seems like also, sometimes maybe, what would be our natural craving response gets confused by the sort of modern phenomenon of engineered foods. For instance, you know, there’s always, women crave chocolate around their periods. We hear that all the time. But chocolate’s a source of magnesium. So maybe women actually need more magnesium, and chocolate is the thing their body knows how to crave. Or we crave salty foods, maybe we actually need more hydration and electrolytes. And that’s what our body knows how to crave. Am I along the right lines there?
Dr. Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So when you are… This also goes to comfort, right? So, Katie, when you’ve had a horrible day at work, like, fire after fire, and the kids are being crazy, and all this stuff, your brain pathways try to think of the most comforting exercises or foods, right? So they think back, “Oh, yeah, you know, since she was six, whatever she eats ice cream at the end of the day, she feels comfortable, and happy, and relaxed.” Right? Serotonin release, dopamine release. And so, your body just wants to keep you alive, and happy, and relaxed. And it thinks back to the pathways that are already set. And a lot of our pathways were set when we were kids, without us even realizing that they were being set. And so, it is exactly what you’re saying. Like, you’re craving comfort, or you’re craving magnesium, or you’re craving a hydration, or you’re craving sleep, you’re craving love. What is the shortest pathway to this feeling of comfort or relief.
And that’s where, again, you are in the driver’s seat, you can take control over that and say, “All right, I may have had this pathway, because every time, you know, I had a bad day when I was a kid, I got to eat ice cream. And that’s what my body thinks is comforting to me.” But I can now take control over that because I understand that. And I can retrain those pathways to actually pray good things. Those are exercises that I actually go through in the book using the scientific knowledge we have of those dopamine pathways. So it’s really fascinating.
Katie: And I’ll make sure for sure the book is linked in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm. Because there’s so much amazing info in there that we can’t get through in an hour-long podcast. But I really did love those exercises. And it brings me to the idea, you mentioned that these things are often sort of trained early in childhood. So, as parents, what are some things we can do to help our kids form really good habits in these pathways? And then maybe also just give us some high level of how we can retrain our own if we’re, like, “Oh, no, I know for sure my pathways are messed up.”
Dr. Amy: Okay, when they’re younger, the best way is to make them aware of dopamine releases that are positive. So when you go outside and play in nature, say to them, “Doesn’t it feel so good to be outdoors and play in nature?” Because you want them to recognize that these things are also dopamine releases, but they’re, like, splashes, right, and they’re not explosions. And so, if you don’t recognize it, it might be like, “Well, yeah, but I get a way better feeling when I sit inside and play video games.” Right? So, first, when they’re younger, just having them recognize that because I think that saying, like, “Oh, isn’t this fruit so delicious?” Or, like, you know, things that are positive, and making them realize what their brain is telling them, what their body is telling them, that mind body connection.
Then as they get older, like my teens, I mean, they can really know the whole pathway. They can know, hey, the reason why the orange doesn’t give you the same feeling that the orange soda does is because of this. There’s no fiber, you know, it’s been created in a lab to create a huge dopamine explosion. And yes, of course, that’s going to be easier to get that good feeling, to get that high. But we want dopamine splashes throughout the day. We want you to get exercise, get sunlight, eat foods that actually release dopamine, like, high protein foods, for example, nuts, seeds, dairy. I mean, these are…natural protein rich foods are great sources of dopamine. And then there’s other things like cherries and certain nuts, they really release dopamine as well. So kind of having them actually recognize, like, hey, there’s things you can be doing that are going to increase your dopamine, that a lot of us learned the hard way. Like, you know, I was at a rock bottom before I realized, oh, oh, yeah, exercise, sunlight, you know, living with circadian rhythms, sleep and good food can also give me that sense of happiness and energy that I was not getting from other things.
And like, you know, energy drinks are literally linked with lowered mood. And even though they give you energy, they’re actually stealing from your energy bank. So, the older kids are a little… I mean, it’s like, I wish I had learned that in high school, so that I didn’t have to make all the mistakes, and then go backwards and learn it myself the hard way. And I think knowing you outside of this, I know that you’ve kind of built a lifestyle, probably from the fact that you made a lot of mistakes, too. You know, and we learn these dopamine, serotonin, endorphin pathways, almost because we had to. We were in a situation where our health and our mind body connection was poor, and you’re kind of cleaning up the mess.
Katie: Absolutely. And I know that probably you share this as well, the desire to take those lessons I learned the hard way, and use them to educate my kids, not so that they will never have obviously hard experiences in life. Of course, they will. But maybe they can have a shorter path on some of these things than we have. You also in the book talk about something called hunger hijackers. And I would love for you to explain what these are.
Dr. Amy: So, you know, there are things that actually make us hungrier. Okay. And I think the best example of this is when you got a really poor night of sleep. Because you have a lot of parents on this, on the show, listening or watching. And parents, I know you can relate to this. You got a terrible night of sleep, you wake up, and all you want from the minute you wake up is something with lots of fat, carbs, quick sugar. And it’s like your body doesn’t even…like, it doesn’t even know anything different. All you want is something to keep you awake and something to keep you alert. And so it’s, like, caffeine, and sugar, and carbs, and fat all day long. And that’s one of the things I talk about. It’s like an actual phenomenon. They’ve shown in studies that your hunger hormones actually get, you know, altered when you have poor sleep. And I talk about some of the remedies for that. One of the quickest remedies I have for tired parents right now is, go outside, and even if it’s cold and gray, get some natural light into your body. So we have circadian centers in our brain from our eyes, go straight to our circadian centers. We have skin circadian receptors. Our body is really solar powered. We’re like sunflowers, right?
So we need that. And often what people don’t realize is that, the sunlight you get during the day also helps you with your hunger hormones, and helps with that hijacking of kind of mood and cravings that happens when you didn’t get a good night’s sleep. Now, obviously, the best answer is to go ahead and get a good night’s sleep the next night. But in lieu of that, getting some natural light releases this hormone in your brain called alpha MSH, which is linked to satiation and lowered cravings. And so, these hunger hormones that are really, really riled up will calm down. And the other thing is exercise. You know, exercise is a great way to get your hunger hormones kind of back in check when they’ve been kind of altered by things you do. And of course, some of the hunger hormones are often… You know, with women, hormonal changes can really change our hunger hormones. I think most women can relate to the fact that their late luteal phase, the week before your period, your hunger hormones are on a high level at that point. And there’s a few things you could do, you know, strategies that you could do to kind of help that. But in general, it’s a very natural phenomenon to feel hungrier that week before because of those hunger hormones.
Katie: You said so many good things all at once. I want to highlight and go deeper a little bit on a couple of them. The first one being light, because anytime I get a chance to talk about the importance of sunlight on here, I have to because I feel like there’s just so much misinformation floating around. We’ve been told the sun is bad and harmful. And I very much oppose that because like you said, were solar powered beings. Light is one of the most important signaling mechanisms for our body, for our circadian rhythm. Obviously not saying you need to go out and get lots and lots and lots of bright sun and get sunburned. Of course not. But at least for me, I’ve noticed the biggest difference if I very consistently get morning sunlight, as soon as I wake up, make myself just go outside for 10 minutes. And then midday sunlight at some point, seems to really, really make a difference in my energy levels and my sleep that night. And I know you’ve talked so much, I’ll make sure to link to some of your information about sort of lining up your circadian biology with fasting, with sleep, with food, with all those things. But can you just go a little deeper on that light connection and why we as humans need light?
Dr. Amy: Yeah. You know, the most fascinating part of this, Katie, is that the gut bacteria that live deep in our bowels, they need light. They need light input. So, they’re creatures, and they’re organisms that lives, and they have, they’re hungry. They have needs, they need to sleep, and they need sunlight. And people don’t even… I mean, it sounds like a sci-fi movie, right? There’s this whole world down there. And they respond to light, because every organism on earth actually has circadian rhythms. And our bodies actually, now we’re finding out… The Nobel Prize in Medicine, actually, 2017, went to the molecular mechanisms on how circadian rhythms run all of our cells. So it makes sense. So, if you are eating at all hours of the night, your body never gets a chance to renew and repair. It’s almost like staying up all night. You know, the same thing with our brain, you need to have periods of rest, mixed with periods of alertness. And the way our body decides to do that and has been doing so for thousands of years, and it’s not changing anytime soon, is through light.
And so light is our biggest input. And then food and temperature are, like, secondary inputs. So when we’re eating at the wrong times, our circadian rhythms, our clocks are getting confused. And when we are changing kind of our light input, our circadian rhythms are getting confused. And so you’re not going to get the good growth hormone release that you want at the times you want. You’re not going to get the repair and the renewal. And we’re talking about aging and disease. You’re really shortchanging yourself by not following circadian rhythms. We need light input. And it doesn’t need to be bright light. You’re lucky to live in a place with bright light. You know, most people at this type of…during the winter months, are talking about how it’s quite overcast or dark outside at night. I would say it’s still better than indoor light. Indoor light is, you know, 1/10th of what you’re getting outdoors. So even a cloudy overcast day is 10,000 lux of light. A bright sunny day is a 100,000 lux of light. If you buy a sun lamp from Amazon, it will mimic that cloudy day, it’s 10,000 lux of light. And indoor lighting is not even close. It’s like 1000 to 2000.
And so one of the biggest problems that happened during the pandemic is that people just weren’t getting enough natural light. We were trying to alter our circadian rhythms, but you can’t work a night shift job, but your body still works on a sun dark cycle. And so, you have to understand that, even if you’re staying up late at night, or already working late at night.
Katie: Yeah. I think that alone, people often underestimate just how impactful light can be. Because it’s not like where we eat food, we feel not hungry kind of immediately. We might not necessarily in the beginning feel that immediate shift from light. But like I said, it’s one of the things I’ve done that I’ve seen the biggest change in hormones and sleep over the long term, I mean, make it a habit. And I would say even now, I actually do feel sort of that mood shift instantly. Like, if I get in the sun, like on my lunch break, podcasting, I’ll just go out in the sun for 10 minutes, and I will feel blissful. Because I’m used to getting that light input, and now my body sort of craves the sunlight.

This podcast is brought to you by HigherDose, a new company I’ve found and I’m loving their products, especially their PEMF mats. They have a best-selling detoxifying Infrared Sauna Blanket, grounding Infrared PEMF Mats with 20 lbs of crystal therapy, and a rejuvenating Red Light Mask. Their sauna blanket has an amethyst layer to deepen benefits of infrared, a tourmaline layer that generates negative ions, a charcoal layer to bind to pollutants and amplify the detoxification process, and a clay layer which is balancing for the heat. I also love that the sauna blanket is compact and great for those who don’t have room or budget for a full sauna.
For those of you who want to experience the benefits of infrared without the sweat, they also have a really cool Infrared PEMF Mat that comes in 2 sizes. It combines the powerful technology of infrared and healing crystals with PEMF, for an unbelievable recharging experience. I have this in my room and love using it before bed for improved sleep.
I also love their Red Light Mask, which boosts mood, stimulates collagen, activates glowing skin, reduces fine lines, and regenerates cells. Light therapy is a gentle, non-invasive treatment that mimics low-level wavelengths found in natural sunlight. Oh, and this mask is cordless and comes with a secure top strap so I can do other things while am getting my glow on! I most often use the mask while sitting on the PEMF mat and listening to a podcast or audiobook. They also have a whole line of supplements to maximize hydration and well-being. Check out all their products at HigherDOSE.com/mama. You can use promo code: MAMA15 at checkout to save 15% off site-wide.

This episode is brought to you by Hiya children’s vitamins… Typical children’s vitamins are basically candy in disguise and most brands on store shelves are filled with sugar, unhealthy chemicals, and other gummy junk growing kids should never eat. And this is why I like Hiya. Hiya makes children’s vitamins with zero sugar and zero gummy junk, yet it tastes great and is perfect for picky eaters. Hiya fills in the most common gaps in modern children’s diets to provide the full-body nourishment our kids need with a yummy taste they love.
It is manufactured in the USA with globally sourced ingredients each selected for optimal bioavailability and absorption. Hiya arrives straight to your door on a pediatrician-recommended schedule. Your first month comes with a reusable glass bottle your kids can personalize with stickers, then every month thereafter Hiya sends a no-plastic refill pouch of fresh vitamins — which means Hiya isn’t just good for your kids, it’s also good for the environment. You no longer have to worry about running out of your vitamins and they will automatically arrive when you need them. Go to hiyahealth.com/wellnessmama to save on your first month.

You also mentioned exercise as an important signaling mechanism here. And this is another area that I feel like… Especially for women, there’s been a lot of sort of misinformation and conflicting advice about what we should do and how much. It’s sort of universally agreed that we need to move as humans, and we need exercise. And this is one of those important inputs. But statistically, a lot of us aren’t getting enough exercise or the right type of exercise. So from a circadian biology perspective, and a gut and food and cravings perspective, what do you recommend for people on sort of optimizing the exercise component?
Dr. Amy: Okay, I want to just say three words before I get into exercise, its “sky before screens”. That will change your life. So, even if you’re a mom like me and Katie, if you need to look at your phone for emergency texts, like, don’t spend more than one minute. My rule is, I can look at it for one minute to just scan to make sure, like, you know, there is no emergency situations, because most of us are in a situation where you can’t just get up out of bed and not look at your phone for hours. So, sky before screens means you get up and you go and look at the sky without a window, or open a window, or just step outside is what I do from my back door. And I just stand there for two to five minutes. Sometimes I can do more. Sometimes it’s just two to five minutes in my pajamas, stretching. And it’s, you know, on with my day. And at least I know if nothing else, I got that much sunlight and quiet in my day.
And often, it leads to, “Oh, you know what, I’m not going to pick up my phone yet. I’m going to, you know, get ready for the day, brush my teeth, get my food ready.” And so it becomes this really beautiful time of… I can’t tell you anything that has changed my life in the last year, a habit, like, a two-minute habit, more than that one. So I want to share that.
Now let’s talk about exercise. Exercise is the strongest probiotic you will ever take. Exercise produces a gut bacteria byproduct called butyrate. Butyrate is this magic anti-inflammatory compound that makes you happier, it makes you healthier, and calms inflammation in the whole body. And we know when we are inflamed is when we get diseases. And so I was so shocked to see the data. I mean, it’s so crazy, right? We talk about probiotics all the time, but we never talk about exercise as being the number one, the strongest, most effective probiotic.
Katie: That’s so fascinating. I hadn’t heard that before. And I know also, when I look at the data, like, the more lean muscle mass we have as we age, sort of the better outcomes we see and the less risk of all-cause mortality. In general, just because there’s so many factors that go into that. But it seems like for a lot of women, the advice has been just, like, do lots of cardio, or do classes, or whatever, stay skinny, be thin. And I’ve been trying to shift in the last couple of years. And I’ve talked about this before of, like, I want to build strength and muscle mass. That doesn’t mean getting bulky. In fact, I’m getting leaner and smaller. But my focus is, like, how do I build muscle, because that’s protective as we age.
Dr. Amy: Yeah, muscle is a metabolic organ in the body. So it uses up, you know, blood sugar. It helps you with your metabolism. Your hunger hormones are more in check when you have more muscle. And so I think there’s many, many reasons, especially for women as we get older, because we naturally lose about 3% of our muscle mass every year. So when people talk about, oh, our metabolism is slowing down. No, it’s just that your largest metabolic organ is shrinking by 3% every year. Your baseline metabolism is actually the same until you’re age 60. So the biggest thing that women can do to protect themselves against metabolism changes, menopausal hormonal changes, is maintain that muscle mass through both diet and exercise. So I 100% agree with you. I’m on that same journey.
Katie: I love that. Also another term that you use in the book that I would love for you to explain is psychobiotics. Can you explain what those are and what we need to know about them?
Dr. Amy: Katie, psychobiotics is an exploding field of bacteria that create mood. So the way it came about is that, there was a series of studies that showed that if you transplant bacteria from someone’s gut to another person’s gut, you can actually transplant their entire mental state. So Schizophrenia can be transplanted from one human to another or one animal to another. You can do that with depression. You can do that with anxiety. And you can do it with, you know, mental states of motivation and drive. Like, athletes, there’s a company that’s selling the microbiome of athletes, because we know that there’s something different about the makeup of their bacteria that, you know, may lead to competitive advantages. So this fascinating new science of psychobiotics is that bacteria can control your mood. And I think for me, again, it’s like putting yourself in the driver’s seat. I always thought, even through medical school, through nutrition school, that your mood was kind of a result of your circumstances. Or maybe it’s a result, a little bit of, you know, how hard you work, that kind of thing.
I had no idea that there are bacteria inside of you that are deciding your mood at this current moment. And that we can actually do things to alter that bacteria. Now, of course, big companies are trying to figure out the right, you know, pill probiotic solution to this. And as you know and I know, that yes, there’s probably not… We’re not too far away from being able to say, “Hey, take this strain if you’re feeling down. Take this strain if you’re feeling anxious.” And we kind of already know a little bit about that. But the studies haven’t panned out. It’s not as easy as just adding probiotics to the mix. Because as you know, our body does not necessarily keep those bacteria that you ingest, it often just kills them off. It has to assimilate your kind of ecosystem. It’s like dropping winter plants into the Amazon jungle. Like, if you’re not matching the ecosystem, it’s not going to stick. And so the psychobiotic world is my favorite, because there’s things that we can do to actually change our mood on a daily basis. And I use it on a daily basis to actually change the way I eat and do things.
And we talked about one of them already, or two of them already, sunlight, exercise, both of them have ways to, like I said, change the gut bacteria, create byproducts that actually boost mood, right? But there’s foods actually, that we can be eating, that boost the right bacteria in your gut that is going to create good mood. And so I really go into deep detail into, like, the six foods that you should be getting every day. And I kind of talked about on social media recently as well, because I think it’s really important to know, hey, if you’re feeling down, have you checked your diet lately? Have you looked at… It’s so obvious to you and I, but in the medical world, it’s not really discussed very often. I mean, there’s some amazing practitioners who go deep on diet, but other than that, it’s mostly like, you know, eat a healthy diet, whatever that means. Which, you know, in America, the standard diet is, like, the farthest thing from healthy.
Katie: Great. And I definitely will defer to your book for people to get into all the detail of that. But are there any sort of, like, high level big changes that people can make that seem to have a really good impact?
Dr. Amy: Well, okay, the biggest change, I will tell you, the number one thing is that there’s a classification, the nova classification of food that classifies food as ultra-processed or not. And I didn’t understand because we hear all these words like junk food, or processed food, you know, genetically modified food, non-organic food. But what the research showed is that there is this special classification that they used, that actually predicted poor mood. And that was ultra-processed. So what ultra-processed means, is that it contains ingredients that could never be recreated in a kitchen. Meaning, like, that food, if you have a sandwich, and you buy it from a fast food place, and you look at the ingredients, and all the ingredients are cheese, you know, lettuce, tomato, whatever. But if there’s chemicals on there that is not in your kitchen or any culinary setting, would you be able to add or find, that’s considered ultra-processed. So, Doritos, Oreos.
No matter how many ingredients you bought from exotic stores, you could never recreate it the way that they are in the package, right? Because they have ingredients in them that aren’t culinary items, that aren’t food items. So the nova classification made it really easy for me to realize, oh, well, now that makes it easy to realize why a bean burrito from Taco Bell might not be the same as a bean burrito you make at home. Because if you make it with beans… And no shade at Taco Bell. I know, like, lots of people love it, and there’s healthy options sometimes there. But like, I looked at the simple bean burrito, and it’s beans, and cheese, and a tortilla. Right? That’s what you would think. You try to recreate it at home, you cannot recreate it the way it’s made at the fast food because there are ingredients in it that don’t exist in a kitchen, and cannot be found without being in a chemistry lab. And that’s so fascinating to me. So those people who were eating ultra-processed foods at the highest amounts, had 80% more poor mental health days than the group that was eating the lowest amount of ultra-processed food.
And to me, that was, like, the biggest eye opener. Like, all right, forget paleo, vegan, carnivore, you know, do whatever you want. But maybe you focus on instead of buying that bean burrito from the fast food or getting that burger from that fast food. Maybe you spend five minutes just recreating it at home. Even a simple grilled cheese, for example, or a, you know, sweet potato chips instead of eating Doritos, or making your own ice cream instead of getting a bar that has thousands of ingredients. I mean, it goes back to the motivation. We know intuitively that that would be healthy. But most of us aren’t doing that, most of us are still choosing the packaged processed food item because we don’t really know this data. And for me, that was the thing that, like, flipped it for me because I thought, “Oh, wow, my kids, when they eat something, I could easily go home and make a quick pasta. Takes 5 to 10 minutes, but it’s made with real ingredients.” And even though technically, it’s not a health food, it is thousands of times healthier for their mental and physical health than something we would get from the drive-thru.
Katie: Yeah, I love that you talk about that, because I feel like that part is not talked about well enough. And the conversation for too long has centered on calories and then macros. And not that those things aren’t important, but for a while, I’ve been saying, what if we shifted to nutrient density per volume of food, instead of just calories or macros? And not to say I don’t think it’s important to get enough protein. That’s been a huge shift for me that was really important. But even within that is, like, when I’m looking at my food choices, if I’m going to eat the certain amount of food per day, how do I make it the most nutrient dense foods possible? So that I’m actually feeding my gut bacteria, like we talked about in the beginning, getting enough range of micronutrients, of which we know many Americans are deficient in a lot of key micronutrients. And this is a whole new level to that, I feel like understanding, kind of intuitively, we know maybe ultra-processed foods aren’t great, but they have such a profound and direct impact on even our mood. And so as parents, I hear that and think, like, why would I not want to do something that’s going to help my kids have less anxiety, and depressive episodes, and frustration, and whatever it may be? Seems like that’s huge for families.
Dr. Amy: Yeah. And, you know, what I also do is I give really simple hunger hacks in the book. So, it can feel really overwhelming. You know, what’s that first step? And so I’ll give you one example that I have in the book. Walnuts are a satiating food that helps you get control of that brain gut connection. So what I mean is, they did a study, it was a small study, but they had shakes, and they grinded up 40 grams of walnuts, or 40 grams of, like… It was, like, a material that had the same texture as walnuts, because they didn’t want the people to know the difference, right? So they fed them. They had the shake every day. And at the end of about, I think it was six weeks, they did MRI, which is the most, you know, best way to look at brain activity. And they found that the cravings and hunger centers were calmer in the group that was eating walnuts. And it was one shake a day difference, 48 grams of walnuts started to make that difference.
And so for me, I was like, you know, these are little actionable tips that if you’re like, “Oh, whoa, whoa, okay, I get it. But like, what do I do first? Or what do I do second?” Maybe it’s, you get the sunlight and you start adding, you know, more greens and more nuts into your food. And maybe it’s like, you start to stop eating two or three hours before bed. And, you know, make these small changes and see how you feel. And you see a change in your cravings, you see a change in your hunger, in your mood. And that’s kind of how I structure it in the book so that you can really at the end of it, feel empowered.
Katie: And again, I will link to your book and your website in the show notes. You guys check it out. Especially I love following you on Instagram. You always post so much really relevant, important content. And speaking of books, another question I love to ask at the end of interviews, and I know I’ve asked you before, but if there are any books that have really profoundly impacted your life, or any recent reads that really affected you a lot.
Dr. Amy: Oh, yeah. Okay, since we’re talking about dopamine, and if you’re really into this dopamine world, I love the book called “The Molecule of War.” And it’s a beautiful book about the biology and physiology of dopamine, and how it works in all aspects of your life. And I read this, and that was some of the inspiration to write this book. Because I thought, wow, looking at that, the brain psychobiotic bacteria, looking at this biology of dopamine, there’s so much actionable knowledge for us to be changing how we function on a daily basis. And I think I’ve told you this before, Katie, the point to me is not to lose the last five pounds, which is great if you want to. But the point is, is that, the way we are going in our society right now, is a very dismal future. I had no idea, but this is actually the calm before the storm. We feel like our depression rates, and heart disease, and diabetes is high. But 2050, which is not too far away, they are really predicting catastrophic rates of depression, of diabetes, heart disease.
So a 35% rise in diabetes, a doubling of Alzheimer’s, a 35% rise in depression and anxiety. I mean, our numbers are already bad. And to say that we are on a trajectory towards basically, depression, disease of despair is really scary to me. And I know for a fact that even if you took three to five tools from this book, and apply it into your life and to your family’s life, we could start to change this trajectory. Like, I honestly think that this can help people save themselves and then empower themselves to save other people as well.
Katie: Yeah. I’ve seen some of those stats as well. And even seeing those 15 years ago, and just the rising rates of all these things, was my original motivation for starting to write on Wellness Mama at all. I know that we’ve definitely made inroads in some areas, but like you said, the statistics are so bleak. And I think moms especially have such a unique power to start shifting those trends. Because we are day to day with the next generation, we’re making food choices often for our families. And so I love that you also speak to moms and give such really, like, practical tools that we can use in our family to start really making a difference here. Which leads me to the last question, which is just, I know you are a busy mom and a busy physician, and you have a lot on your plate. So what are your personal things, your sort of 80-20 negotiables that you always fit in, even on a busy day?
Dr. Amy: Oh, that morning routine. I think that we all… Like, that skies before screens. Just having some semblance of a morning and evening routine to me. So the evening is three, two, one. Three hours, no food before bed. As you know, I’m a huge believer in circadian fasting. Two hours, stop work and exciting conversations or emails. You know, all of that stuff stops two hours before bed. Then one hour before bed, or at least 30 minutes, because I know for some people, I would say 30 to 60 minutes. So one hour of no screens and electronics.
Katie: I love it. And like I said, there’s so much more to learn from you. And you have so many resources online. So I’ll link to all of those in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm. But Dr. Amy, it’s always a joy to chat with you. I always learn so much. I know how busy you are. Thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Amy: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. Hopefully I’ll get to see you soon in person.
Katie: Yes. And thanks as always to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama Podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.