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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
Katie: Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com, and I am back for round two with today’s guest, Dana Kay, about supporting children with ADHD through a multifaceted approach. If you missed our first episode, the link for that is in the show notes, and we go deep on a food-first approach, even supplemental to medication or in place of medication, to really supporting our children’s nutritional and inflammatory and detox needs if they are working through the symptoms of ADHD.
In this episode, we go even deeper on the gut-brain connection and how this has such a dramatic and direct impact on the symptomology of ADHD. She shares some really surprising statistics, including that over 54% of American children are diagnosed with some sort of chronic condition and how 80% of the immune system lives in the gut, as well as 95% of serotonin in the body and 50% of dopamine are produced in the gut. She talks about how this is a two-way communication pathway between the gut and the brain and how they both affect each other quite dramatically. This episode also gets very practical when she talks about testing that can help you get an accurate picture of what’s going on in the gut and in the rest of the body in a child that is working through ADHD, as well as most commonly helpful supplements and dietary interventions with caveats on how to personalize those to your child based on testing. I say so often on here that we are each our own primary healthcare provider, and I feel like she gives some very practical and actionable advice on how to step into that role if your child is struggling through ADHD. So let’s join her and learn now. Dana, welcome back. Thanks for being here again.
Dana: Thank you so much for having me.
Katie: Well, if you guys missed it, our first episode had some really awesome foundational advice and approach to helping your child if they have symptoms of ADHD. And in this one, I’m really excited to build on that conversation and go deep on the gut-brain connection, which I’m guessing most people listening have certainly heard of at this point. And we understand that there’s a connection there and how important gut health is. But statistically, this is also an area that Americans especially have not great data on and are struggling with a little bit. And it’s sad when we see that, especially affecting our kids somewhat disproportionately. So I would love to sort of dive deep into this topic today and maybe give us some foundational understanding of what’s going on in the gut in a child who’s presenting with ADHD symptoms.
Dana: Well, I think it gets missed so much. And I wish there was a lot more, you know, science and literature on it. I mean, there’s a growing body of evidence for sure. But I think that, you know, I want to start off with some statistics. You know, in our last episode, we talked about the increase of the diagnoses of disease in our kiddos. And it’s currently estimated, they haven’t updated the study, but in 2018, it was estimated that 54% of American children were diagnosed with a chronic illness. And that’s more than half our kiddos. And that figure was only 15% a couple of years before that. And every time I hear that statistics, I’m just floored. I’m shocked at looking at that increase. You know, we’ve got one in two having anxiety or asthma. We’ve got, you know, type 1, type 2 diabetes, epilepsy, cystic fibrosis, heart problems. Learning disabilities, hyperactivity, sinus infections, ear infections. One in five have allergies. One in six have developmental delays. And one in 32 have autism.
And we have to stop and we have to ask ourselves, why do we think that rise is occurring so rapidly? And that was in 2018. I wonder what it is now. And in my opinion, the answer is simple. It all begins in the gut. 80% of the body’s entire immune system is within the gut wall, along with billions of nerve cells and an extensive amount of beneficial gut bacteria. So all of our health, especially our kiddos, is quite literally connected to everything that occurs in the gut. And I have countless families that come to me for guidance with their kiddos’ ADHD symptoms. And when I ask them, if there’s any family history of sickness, people usually tell me that everyone’s fit and healthy, their diet’s pretty good. But when I sort of press forward and ask whether their child has been on antibiotics or suffered from diarrhea or constipation, they often tell me that they have and they’re actually surprised to learn that it’s not healthy or normal. You know, it might be very common but it’s a byproduct of an unhealthy gut. And then I ask if their kid’s been on lots of antibiotics when they were younger and a massive percentage of those children had. And as I sort of mentioned last time, I actually wish that I kept a tally of how many kids had actually been on antibiotics in the past out of the families that I’ve spoken to. You know, I’d probably estimate 70% to 80% of them have.
But what happens with these antibiotics, they work by killing bacteria or preventing it from growing further. But unfortunately, most of these antibiotics can’t distinguish between that good and that bad bacteria. So that means they can wreak havoc on the gut’s healthy bacteria. And many people actually suffer lasting changes to their gut flora as a result of taking antibiotics. People don’t realize that. And so, you know, some of these kids have been on multiple rounds. You know, we’ve got a large percentage of these children being on lots of antibiotics, and that’s in turn compromising their gut. And when the gut is compromised, given that there’s 80% of the entire immune system within the gut walls, it’s kind of not a huge surprise to see that disorders and illnesses are on the rise. So that’s sort of just a lay of the land of the gut.
But, you know, people are out there probably wondering, well, what’s that got to do with ADHD? I think tying gut health to the brain health is important. And what that gut-brain connection means is that our brains are deeply connected to our guts. And if our guts aren’t functioning well, our brains won’t be able to function well. There’s these two-way chemical messengers that pass from the gut and to the brain and vice versa through the vagus nerve. And I kind of like to use this little analogy. You know, when you’re nervous about something, you get butterflies in your stomach or you might feel a bit nauseous. That’s your brain telling your gut, like, you know, perceiving danger. It’s telling, it’s that communication. And but the reverse is also true. So the gut is also talking to the brain. And one of the main areas that is speaking to the brain is that frontal lobe. And that frontal lobe is responsible for things like attention and focus and executive function, planning, organizing, problem solving. I’m not sure if you know much about ADHD, but do these sound like areas that are affected by ADHD?
Katie: Yeah, absolutely.
Dana: Yeah. So like, you know, if listeners out there are familiar with common ADHD symptoms, they should definitely sound like that. Children with ADHD often struggle with all of those tasks. And because that frontal lobe is in their brain, many people are under the impression it’s the brain that is what needs care, when in reality, it’s also the guts that’s causing a problem.
The biggest kicker for me, though, and again, a lot of people don’t sort of tie emotional regulation to ADHD, but it’s actually one of the really common symptoms that I see. Basically, our gut makes 95% of our serotonin and 50% of our body’s dopamine. These are produced in the gut. These are our hormones or our neurotransmitters that help us manage our emotions. They help us balance our mood and they help our cognitive function. And, you know, emotional dysregulation is one of those symptoms that stops the whole family, those tantrums, those meltdowns. But many parents don’t realize that this emotional dysregulation starts in the gut where that serotonin, where that dopamine are made. So the problem then is not the emotions themselves, but the fact that the correct amount of these vital neurotransmitters are not being made in the first place. So as you can see, by working on to improve gut health, many parents of children with ADHD find that that emotional dysregulation problem solve themselves. The brain starts focusing better. And all of these skills start coming into play where their kids are able to thrive.
Katie: Yeah, I don’t know if I even shared this before on the podcast, but actually a few years ago in preparation for a podcast about brain scans with a neuroscientist, I did a brain scan. And one of the questions he asked in that was, has your ADHD ever gotten in your way? And I was like, oh, interesting. No, because that’s actually the first I’ve heard of it. But I can see, you know, in understanding the symptomology, how that was probably present for me, especially throughout childhood. And so it’s something I’ve been interested in learning about more and more.
And I love that you talk about that two-way communication between the gut and the brain, because of course, while this can mean that a disturbance in one creates a disturbance in the other, to me, that also tells us there’s a twofold way that we can begin to address this. And if we take that multifaceted approach, we can create a positive feedback loop rather than a negative one and sort of see that compounding benefit as the body adapts.
I also would guess that many parents listening, as I said in the last episode, I was a kid who got antibiotics a lot. And I would guess many parents listening, their kids had antibiotics at some point. And, you know, the statistics around that are pretty sobering. I would love for you to speak to if our child has already had antibiotics, what does that mean? Is there hope? Can that be repaired? How do we support if we know that factor is there?
Dana: Yeah, look, I think that we don’t beat ourselves up if that happens. I can tell you that my son, we used to live in Singapore before we moved to America, and they are very heavy-handed with their antibiotics. And so he was actually on probably about five rounds of antibiotics from the age of two to three and a half. But there’s nothing I can do about that now. When you know better, you kind of do better. But I would say there are so many things that families can do if that’s the case. It is not hopeless. And, you know, we discussed earlier on the other episode, kids are so resilient. When you can start to make small, slow changes just in the way they eat or bringing in some supplements to target specifically what’s going on in their gut, these kids can start to get better and better and better, sometimes in as few as a few weeks.
I can tell you that when I changed my son’s diet and bought in some base supplements, I did some functional lab testing. I can talk about that in a second. But literally within three to four weeks, he was a different kid. You know, up until that time, he could never sit down on a chair, even for 10 minutes to eat breakfast or dinner. He would bounce off the walls. His meltdowns, his tantrums were multiple times a day, and they were epic. We lived on this emotional rollercoaster. But literally within three to four weeks, those meltdowns and those tantrums reduced so much. His body started to calm down. He was actually able to sit still for the first time in years.
And so, you know, even just changing the way that you eat breakfast or even bringing in some extra fruit or vegetables, those small steps can start to change the gut microbiome. I’m not going to talk about advanced strategies and getting your kid to eat, you know, sauerkraut or fermented foods because, you know, that’s going to take a while. My kids still don’t really like fermented foods. They like a few of them, but, you know, we’re not talking about things that are completely out of reach here. We’re starting to talk about, you know, some small, slow changes that families can make. Doing a stool test, seeing what is the state of the gut? Are there any parasites? Are there any bacteria? Are there any, you know, overgrowth of that bad bacteria? Is there leaky gut? Is there yeast overgrowth? And once you know that you can start to again, make some specific dietary changes for your child, and you can start to bring in some supplements that can target what’s going on in there and start healing that gut.
Katie: I love that. So let’s go a little deeper on the testing side, because I do feel like, especially if there’s some uncertainty about what’s actually going on, it’s helpful to even just have like a little bit of a tangible knowledge of what’s going on inside to focus on, to start seeing changes and that reinforcement over time that these changes might be helping. So what testing do you commonly recommend when you begin working with families?
Dana: Yeah, look, I want to say something. Look, you know, unfortunately a lot of the functional lab testing is not covered by insurance. And it breaks my heart every time someone can’t afford it because, but what I want to say to those families out there that can’t afford it, I can tell you that everything that I teach on my podcast, on my YouTube channel or whatever, you can implement without doing those functional lab testing. But a lot of families just want that data. They need that data to tell them it’s okay to make these changes. You need to remove gluten because that lab test says, but I can tell you with the amount of families that I’ve worked with, every kid with ADHD needs to remove that gluten to help that inflammation start reducing.
But functional lab testing is sort of like, just as there are causes of the symptoms of a cough, like flu or bronchitis, there are causes of these chronic illnesses. And these symptoms, they’re just like this warning sign from the body that something else is wrong. And the only way to address it is to look at what’s going on inside that body with functional lab testing, you know, if your child is melting down or having a tantrum multiple times a week, that’s not normal. That’s a sign from their body. Mom, Dad, please help me. Something’s going on. So the goal of that lab testing is really there to identify and remove those underlying malfunctions and blocking factors and really return the body to that normal function. So rather than just working to treat symptoms or putting a Band-Aid over them, we get that functional lab testing. And it’s kind of like this bit of a magnifying glass inside our inside our child’s body.
So there are there are four base tests that I use with the families that I work with. There are many more out there and I do use them if I need to but these are kind of a starting point. The first is that stool test that’s going to really give us that that clear picture of the state of the gut you know I already talked about what we look at there. You know gut-brain connection is numero uno and so that’s a really, really good one to do. Not all are created equal, though. A lot of the technology is changing, so it’s really important to be up to date with what’s the best technology at that time in identifying that stool. Unfortunately, traditional doctors out there do not have access to some of those functional stool tests, so they’re really only testing such a small amount of parasites and bacteria, not really getting that whole picture.
The next test we use for kids is a food sensitivity test that looks for inflammatory reactions in the body to certain food. The important thing with food sensitivity is I know there’s a lot of sort of controversy around food sensitivities out there, but they’re not true allergies, but they do cause inflammation. And the goal to start in our kids is to reduce that inflammation. So if we can just know straight up what are some of the foods that are causing that inflammation, it’s going to give us a really good head start in our healing process. And once we can heal the gut, we can start to add those foods back in.
What happens with food sensitivities is a lot of our kids have something called intestinal permeability, which is basically leaky gut. And there’s these large holes in the lining of the gut. And when we eat food, even the healthiest food, before it’s had a chance to be digested, it can go through those holes in the lining into our blood. And the way the body’s designed is that when something foreign goes into our bloodstream, the body recognizes it as an invader and it turns on this inflammatory response. And if that food is there more often, it’s going to continue to create that inflammatory response and continue to break down the lining of the gut. So we have to remove those foods to stop that inflammation in order to heal that gut.
The third test that I look at is an organic acid test. One of my favorite. It looks at over 70 different important markers in the whole body and how it’s functioning. It can show you the need for specific nutrients like B vitamins, which is super critical for our kids with ADHD. It can look for further diet modifications, so things like salicylates and oxalates. They’re chemical compounds found in some of the most healthiest food. It looks at our detoxification pathways. It looks at our neurotransmitters, so our serotonin, our dopamine. It’s looking at our mitochondria, which are the powerhouse of our cells. It’s also looking at yeast, mold. I mean, mold, I can’t tell you how many kids I see that have mold riddled in their body, and it’s actually becoming quite a bit of an epidemic, and people don’t realize that. That organic acid, while it’s not the best test for mold, it does give us that overview, a really good bang for our buck because we get a lot of different markers there.
And then the last one, which a lot of people don’t talk about, is something called a cryptopyrrole test. Pyrroles are a normal chemical byproduct in our body. And what happens is if we’ve got a genetic predisposition to pyrroles, plus we’re in a state of inflammation or oxidative stress, our body will produce these elevated levels of pyrroles and they’ll come out in the urine. But they have this really big affinity for zinc and B6, and it attaches to them and it draws them out of the body when they’re excreted through the urine. So if someone has elevated urine cryptopyrrole levels, it results in a dramatic deficiency of zinc and B6. But it is frequently identified in behavioral disorders, ADHD, depression, aggression, violent behavior. Some of the symptoms are like poor tolerance to physical or emotional stress, poor anger control, mood swings, poor short-term memory, tactile sensitivities, light and sound sensitivities. A lot of those are common symptoms of ADHD. And I would say in all the kids that I’ve tested, probably about 60% of them have elevated levels of pyrroles when if you look at the whole society, I think the percentage is only about 10% of people, whereas it’s about 60% of the population that I’m looking at. So they’re the four sort of like base tests that really give us that high-level view of what’s going on in those kiddos’ bodies.
Katie: That’s fascinating. And I have not heard that recommendation before. So that’s a great one that parents can look at and a new insight. I’ll of course, make sure I link to your resources available that go deeper on all of this, as well as where people can learn from you, how to find these things, how to work with you. But that also brings me to the question about, you mentioned sometimes supplements can be helpful. And I know we live in a time when even Chris Kresser, who was kind of the king of food first is now saying there comes a time where we have to get things from supplements. Like our food supply simply does not have enough of these nutrients anymore. And I would guess you’ve also seen patterns here in the work that you do. I of course, also advocate for food first, get it from nutrition whenever possible. And it seems like we are now in a time of both and. So I think the first step is approach your food, not as terms of calories or macros, but in terms of how can I maximize the nutrient density, the anti-inflammatory properties, the nutrient levels in general in my food. And then once that’s dialed in, sometimes more personalized, direct supplemental approach can be really helpful or necessary. So, are there any patterns that emerge with the caveat, of course, that every human is individual and we’ll need a little bit of an individualized approach, but ones that commonly occur in children with ADHD?
Dana: Yeah, for sure. I love that you said that, you know, every child is a bio individual, meaning that everyone is unique. So what works really well for one child might show a little effect for another. I remember this one time before I knew what I know, I saw on some Facebook group that, you know, magnesium was the wonder supplement and their kids had so much more improvement. And so I ordered on Amazon and I was so excited to get it. I couldn’t wait. And I gave it to my son. Epic meltdowns for the next four days. Obviously, not what is what he needed. So, you know, that’s a huge caveat there. We need to make sure that we’re approaching supplementation with each child in mind.
But that being said, there are a few there that I do love for kids with ADHD and ones that seem to be the most effective for most children. The first one is a good quality fish oil for that balance of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids. And there are so many studies out there to support that fish oil can really support that memory, hyperactivity, clear thinking, behavioral disorder issues, organization skills, like there are countless numbers of studies. So that’s probably number one. A lot of our kids won’t eat fatty fish or sardines and seeds and things like that. And that’s why a good quality fish oil can help there.
A good quality probiotic. Gut-brain connection, we bring it back to that. Probiotics can really support detoxification. They can help with healing the gut. They can help balancing the good bacteria with that bad bacteria. It can help with anxiety, mood. It also supports the body against damaging mental and physical effects of stress. Most probiotics out of the market can’t actually survive digestion. And so while they take the probiotic and you might have another stool test and then that bacteria is a good amount now, when you stop taking it, it’s gone away. And I actually like to say that a lot of probiotics in the market will just make sure that you have a lot of expensive poop because it does end up just going outside in the poop. I actually like spore-forming probiotics, which actually reseed the gut. And I kind of like to think of it, you know, in springtime, we get the seeds and we sprinkle out our grass to allow whatever grass or whatever flowers the grass wants to grow, it will grow. That’s kind of what spore-forming probiotics are. It’s actually reseeding the gut and then the gut will grow what it needs. So they are surviving digestion. That’s why I prefer those spore-forming probiotics.
Magnesium. Well, I said it didn’t work for my child back then. It does now. He had a lot of other things going on that we needed targeted first, but parents find that magnesium makes a surprising difference in their kid’s anxiety and depression. It aids in sleep. It also helps with hyperactivity. And there are research studies out there that show that kids with ADHD often have low magnesium levels. So using supplementation can really have a great effect with specific ones that cross the blood brain barrier. They can help calming. They can help sleep. They can help muscle. I mean, magnesium is used for over 300 biochemical processes in the body. So it’s kind of important.
And the next one is vitamin D. Get your kids out in the sun. Vitamin D, it can work wonders for everybody, especially when taken with a supplement of omega-3 fatty acids. I will say I live in Seattle, Washington. We do not have a lot of sunshine. We have a lot of rain here. Maybe for five weeks of the year, the sun is out. I actually do take a vitamin D supplement year-round. I am chronically low in vitamin D. I have done my genetics, and there are three genes that if you’re mutated in, your body can’t convert the vitamin D through into the activated form. They can’t transport it well, and they can’t activate it into the site. Sorry, they can’t absorb it into the site of activation, either into the cells. So I am chronically low no matter what. Even if I lived in a place that was super sunny. So for me, vitamin D is super critical. Same with my son. So knowing your genetics kind of does help as well. Best natural way to get it is going outside into the sun. But if that’s not possible, a vitamin D supplement can also be very, very beneficial.
And zinc. Zinc is super critical for all of our neurotransmitters. It really helps with mood. And it’s also really indicated in cryptopyrrole, like what I mentioned. So I find that a lot of our kiddos are deficient in zinc because of cryptopyrrole. And so bringing in zinc supplementation will help with that. One thing you want to get checked out from your doctor is also your iron and your ferritin levels. That has also been researched quite a lot with kids with ADHD. But I never suggest taking iron unless you know that you’re low.
Katie: That was such a good primer on the starting places to look, especially with supplements. And I’ll echo what you said about magnesium for kids in general. And I can only imagine, especially for children who are working through ADHD, but for moms as well, like motherhood is busy and exhausting and overwhelming. And we often check all the boxes of that, all the factors that can additionally deplete magnesium. Moms almost always check all those boxes. So that’s what I feel most moms, if not all, benefit from having magnesium as well. So that’s one if you’re not already taking, maybe experiment with.
And on the vitamin D side, one resource I found recently that might be helpful to others as well is called D-Minder, which is an app that lets you know how much, based on your skin type and your location, how much vitamin D you might be getting during your sun exposure. And it also helps make sure you’re not pushing into the window where you might burn, but while getting the bright light and sun exposure you need. So if you guys want a tangible resource to help you sort of titrate your sun exposure for optimal benefit, I have found that one helpful as well.
And I know like you could probably give PhD level courses in this and we could speak for 12 hours and not get through all of it. But thankfully, you have created an incredible amount of resources to help families specifically with this. So for anyone who is trying to support a child with ADHD and wants to really dive deep and keep learning, where can they start and what resources would you point them toward?
Dana: Yeah, definitely check out my website, adhdthriveinstitute.com, my YouTube channel, adhdthriveinstitute.com. I have lots of training on there. I actually offer free masterclass. You can sign up for that on my website. My best-selling book, Thriving with ADHD, which is a natural guide to helping your child with ADHD Thrive, that’s available on Amazon.
Katie: Amazing. I will make sure all those links are in the show notes at wellnessmama.com for any of you listening on the go, as well as some resources I found on your site that were incredible, even in researching for this episode. But I just want to tell you, I deeply appreciate the work you’re doing. I know this is a rising issue that many moms are really trying to support their children through. And I’m so grateful for all the work you do to make that accessible and easier for the moms who are in the trenches doing that work. And just for all that you share in the world. Thank you so much for your time and for everything you shared today.
Dana: Thank you so much, Katie.
Katie: And thank you, as always, for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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