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Hello, and welcome to The Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And this episode is about a root-cause approach to things like cold and flu and allergies, and why a lot of the over-the-counter medications that are available are not just outdated, but unhealthy. And today’s guest has a fascinating perspective on this. Nazlie Latefi is the co-founder and chief scientific officer at Applied Biological Laboratories, but she’s been on the forefront of cold and flu research for a long time. And she collaborates with major academic institutions and leads a team of world-renowned researchers in investigating the actual causes of symptoms related to cold and flu. And they isolate the molecules found in nature that effectively modulate and balance the upper respiratory system and balance systemic inflammation, while also maintaining optimal homeostasis in the body. Unlike, as she explained so well, many of the over-the-counter medications that actually disrupt the body’s natural process and can lead to things like a rebound effect. She’s a life sciences expert holding a PhD in molecular biology and neuroscience and has written numerous peer-reviewed articles on a lot of these topics. So very interesting conversation. I’ve never gotten to go deep on the root causes of these things before, and I think her perspective is fascinating. So let’s join her now. Nazlie, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Nazlie: Thank you so much. I’ve been a huge fan of yours for a really long time, so I’m really happy to be on your podcast. Thanks for having me.
Katie: Oh, I’m so glad you’re here, and I’m so glad we connected. You come highly recommended by some close friends, and I think this topic is actually really important and one I have not gotten to ever dive deep on this podcast. So I’m very excited to learn from you and hear your voice on this topic. Before we jump in, though, to all the things we’re going to get to talk about today, I also have a note from your bio that you are also a beekeeper, and I would love to just hear how you got into that because I’ve been a beekeeper in some form since I was about 12.
Nazlie: Oh, wow. That’s really cool. I just love bees. I don’t do it for the honey or I’m not really a big fan of honey. But I mean, like, I love it like everyone else, but I don’t eat it a lot. I just do it because I love the bees and I love watching them and, you know, just such beautiful creatures. And it gives me a reason to plant flowers and to read about the flowers that they like and stuff like that. So yeah, I really, really enjoy it.
Katie: That’s so fun. And as if we needed more reasons to love the bees, I read recently even that they, the sound that they make in their hive is actually very calming to the nervous system. So yeah, just another way that bees benefit all of us. But I’m most excited to learn from you today on like I said, some topics I haven’t gotten to cover on here before. And I think for background and to establish some basis before we jump into the detail part of the conversation about root causes and about better solutions, I think it would be helpful to establish what sort of the problems that we’re facing to begin with. And specifically with you, in the case of when it comes to a lot of the existing over-the-counter medications and the solutions that are widely available in stores. So I know that’s a broad topic, but to jump in, can you just kind of walk us through what some of the problems are with a lot of these medications that have become so ubiquitous that we might have never thought to question them?
Nazlie: Oh, yeah. Thank you for asking that, because it’s something that I really feel is an important topic. So, yeah, unfortunately, a lot of the science around many of the over-the-counter products that are on the market now are outdated. The history goes all the way back to the 1950s, actually, when we really didn’t know anything about inflammation at all. And, you know, so inflammation happens to be the root cause of cold and flu symptoms. And at that time when most of these products came out, I mean, you’ll see their household names like Robitussin and Sudafed. But, you know, if you really look at the active ingredients, they’re all the same. It’s phenylephrine, dextromethorphan, guifenicin, you know, and just a combination of those.
And, you know, at that time, around the 1950s, they would just give these to people and worry about how they felt immediately, right? And so these products that, you know, you’ll feel numb immediately or you’ll feel like, okay, like I’m decongested right now, but it’s very short term. Because all of these ingredients have been studied in clinical trials extensively, not one or two, but like numerous, you know, over 10 in most cases, 20 clinical trials over the years, over the decades. And they’ve been shown not to work. Despite that they might have an immediate effect, but there’s always a rebound effect over the course of several hours or a day or two. It’s really doing nothing to reduce symptoms or reduce the duration of cold.
Katie: That makes sense. And as much as I feel like getting to the root cause has become more of a focus, at least in the alternative health conversations, it’s interesting because I feel like somehow cold and flu have sort of been relegated to their own category. And we don’t necessarily think root cause as much. And we think more about the acute and resolving the symptoms, even though often in the conversation with doctors and experts in other categories, whether it’s thyroid or gut health, we want to go to the root cause. And we think of like, what’s actually creating this issue in the first place? So I feel like this is such an important voice here because we kind of miss that when it comes to, like, we want to talk about root cause until we’re having a fever or until we’re having a cough, and then we just want to fix it immediately. So let’s kind of delve into the root cause side. If we’re taking that approach here as well, what’s actually the root cause of things like cold and flu symptoms? What’s going on in the body that’s leading to that?
Nazlie: Yeah. So you’re exactly right. I mean, when we have a fever or, you know, when we feel like, oh my gosh, it could be the flu or it could be something super serious. We want an immediate, immediate reaction, immediate resolution. But, you know, most of these over-the-counter products, they will not give you that resolution. It’s, it’s a false hope. It’s a false feeling of, okay, it’s immediately like numbing my throat. Well, that’s because it has, you know, basically, it basically has a very similar ingredient to what your dentist gives you when he numbs your tooth. I mean, it’s just really cutting off the nerve signals. It’s not really doing anything for inflammation.
And the inflammation is the root cause. So the inflammation is happening in the tissues. Inflammation is a natural and oftentimes very protective response of your body to sequester whatever is attacking it like you know the virus or a microbe or anything and it starts inflammation to actually sequester the threat. But in the meantime, sometimes it has to damage the tissues to do that. And that’s where you feel those symptoms. But really addressing the root cause is what we need to do. And, yeah, we’re, you know, it’s gut health. It’s interesting that you mentioned because, you know, the respiratory lining is very similar to the gut lining. And, it actually had the same cells and it’s the same idea that, you know, it’s a barrier that we need to keep intact.
Katie: And I’m guessing that might be a new concept for some people listening, even the idea of a respiratory liner and it being similar to the gut liner. I know we’ve heard a lot in the health world about gut health and how that relates to health of the whole body. But I know this is a somewhat new concept to me as well, that we have a respiratory liner that is similar. So I’m curious, what are some ways we can support the respiratory liner and keep that healthy, just like we would want to keep our gut lining healthy and our gut bacteria in optimal ranges?
Nazlie: Yeah, so, well, the most important thing you can do is not use any of these over-the-counter products because we’ve tested them in our labs, and they basically just basically poke holes in your respiratory lining in some of these household names that I mentioned before, because the ingredients are just so damaging. And we’ve never had the tools to look at them before. But, you know, we have these tools now where we can grow tissues in the laboratory, whole tissues, instead of just studying cells. That’s been the classic approach to just study cells. But now we can grow whole three-dimensional living respiratory linings, and we can grow gut linings. And we can study them in detail.
And so the best way to keep them healthy is, you know, to keep them hydrated, to keep them supple. Think of it like your skin, because they’re also very similar to your skin. Hydration is key. Antioxidants, you know, sleep. Anything that’s really healthy and good for your skin and, you know, keeps you vibrant and looking good is really going to also keep your respiratory lining healthy. And whenever you feel a little dryness or irritation, you know, we recommend taking notice of that and like drink water or, you know, we have an immunity line of products that’s a supplement that’s categorized as a supplement and you can take it every day. It comes in a throat spray and a lozenge, which also reminds me, avoid, avoid sugar. Yet another reason to avoid sugar and do not take any lozenges that have sugar in them, because sugar is very drying. It absorbs water. It attracts water to itself. And so you know, if you like suck on a lozenge because you’re feeling a little sick, that’s actually going to dry out your respiratory lining and your throat and make you ironically more prone to getting sick. So, yeah, so avoid sugar, hydrate. In the winter, humidify. Just, you know, keep things flowing. Moist and soft and healthy.
Katie: And I’ve talked about this from a root cause perspective in other areas, but I often say, you know, we think of symptoms as the bad thing or the thing to eliminate. But I think a powerful reframe there is actually that symptoms are messengers and in some ways a huge gift because they’re actually our body speaking directly to us about either what it needs or something that it needs to not have that we’re giving it. And so I think if we reframe that, it gives us a different understanding of our body.
And I would guess the same with colds and flu. Flu, the symptoms themselves are, of course, not the problem. They’re actually a healing response that the body is mounting, like you explained. And I know that they’re uncomfortable, but it brings up also the little bit controversial topic of fevers, which I know are also an adaptive healing response that the body is doing to our benefit. But often we want to immediately shut down the fever or avoid the fever or shut down the symptoms or the cough and avoid it. And like I said, I know it’s controversial, but what’s your take on that? Like, is it actually beneficial to shut down a fever in the body? Or does that have its place within certain parameters to actually be helpful?
Nazlie: Yeah, so those are two questions, and I’ll address the fever one first, and then I’ll go into symptoms. Yeah, that’s exactly right. So fever is an adaptive response. And, and it actually is not dangerous. I mean, of course, speak to your doctor, but, I, I did a podcast with, um, Dr. Phil Ovadia a couple of months ago and, you know, he’s an MD and we were talking about this. And, you know, he said, you know, we’ve learned in med school that a fever is not dangerous until it’s 101. You know, so, you know, that’s from him. I’m, I’m a scientist. I’m not a medical doctor, but, in terms of treating fever. So when we grow viruses in the lab, we actually grow them at a lower temperature than body temperatures, especially for rhinovirus. Influenza grows at body temperature, but the fever is the body’s response to make the virus uncomfortable and regulate its growth. So, yeah, so like I said, one-on-one, but speak to your doctor.
And in terms of treating fever, I would stay away from acetaminophen, anything, even if it’s labeled as quote-unquote clean acetaminophen, it’s still acetaminophen. And, you know, it’s most commonly found in Tylenol. But it’s been proven numerous times in numerous studies to deplete your liver of glutathione. It does effectively reduce fever, but it depletes your liver of glutathione. glutathione, which is an important antioxidant and something that you need to for your body to resolve inflammation on its own. So, you know, if you really want to reduce fever, aspirin or ibuprofen would be a much better approach. And of those, I think aspirin is much better because it actually addresses the specific pathway of inflammation that’s going on in most respiratory symptoms. But again, you know, speak with your doctor.
In terms of symptoms, that’s exactly right. The symptoms, you want to notice them. It’s your body’s way of telling you that something’s wrong. You know, that’s why we get tired. We want to rest, want to take care of ourselves. But also, it’s really important to notice the symptoms early on. So when you first start getting that scratchy throat, you first start getting a little of an itchy nose, that’s when you have the best chance of, you know, overcoming. And so, you know, that’s where you want to give your body the best tools. Because, you know, most respiratory diseases will resolve on their own. But it’s, you know, the longer that you let it go, the more days that you’ll be sick and feel terrible. And then the more likely, you know, you’ll be to get secondary infections or anything.
So like anything else, it’s best to treat it early. And that’s what our products, Biovanta, are designed to do. They’re designed to help your body support its anti-inflammatory response and treat the root cause. And they’ve been clinically proven to do that. We’re coming out with a clinical trial publication.
Katie: And you mentioned you’re a scientist, and I would love to hear a little bit about how you got into developing these and maybe explain a little bit more of how they’re addressing the root cause versus just treating the symptoms. Because I think this is a novel way of looking at things like cold and flu that lets people have something that can actually help acutely, but also more importantly, help long term because you’re not shutting down the body’s natural responses.
Nazlie: Yes. Yeah. So exactly. I’m a scientist and I actually was studying basic science which means that you study things on a molecular level and it’s oftentimes, it’s really not geared towards any one disease per se, but that’s often how some of the best discoveries come about. Sometimes, you know, people will find things that other people weren’t looking for. And, and that’s, that’s what happened with me. So I was studying adhesion molecules. So those are basically like signaling molecules or antennas that are on the outside of cells. And they are looking for messages, you know, like biochemical molecules or signals from outside of them. And a lot of times they get hijacked by viruses because viruses have evolved to, it’s like a lock and key that they have. They’ve evolved to fit into that lock of the receptor and get into the cell.
So I was studying these molecules in the context of the central nervous system, but it happens that some of these same molecules are also in the respiratory system and they’re used by viruses. So, you know, I thought it was really interesting and I followed up on it. And, you know, this has been going on for over 10 years that we’ve been thinking about this and developing this and formulating it to work. You know, and at the same time that I’m a scientist, I’m also very passionate about root causes and natural, you know, the natural approach, which might be a little bit uncommon because, you know, a lot of scientists are like more focused on you know, creating a molecule or it doesn’t matter if the molecule is natural or not, just as long as it does what it does, you know, which is true. But a lot of times when you focus on the natural approach, like especially with regards to inflammation, you get a more balanced response. So, you know, I guess we’ll get into it later, but like with allergies and asthma and steroids. You know, sometimes, and also with this over-the-counter drugs, like they’ll be a rebound effect. And oftentimes you know, when you design molecules that do one specific thing, like a lot of pharmaceuticals, they’re not really, really concerned with the side effects or the long-term consequences of something, you know, per se, or how it works with the rest of the body, which is something I’m also interested in.
Katie: Yeah, this is so fascinating. And I’m glad you mentioned allergies because I know this is an issue, especially around this time of year, and that a lot of families struggle with allergies, especially springtime. So I would love to touch on that because is there overlap here? Is it similar root cause or do we think of that a little bit differently? I know you mentioned a lot of the conventional treatments have that rebound effect or that they’re not necessarily supporting the body in the way that they’re working. But what is then the root cause or the reframe of thinking about allergies?
Nazlie: Yes. So allergies. So getting back to symptoms, symptoms are our body’s natural response and they’re kind of like our alarm signals. But there’s many different pathways in inflammation, which we’re learning more and more about. And a lot of the pathways that are turned on directly by the viruses are different from a lot of the other responses that are turned on with allergies. And sometimes they get confused with each other and the body overreacts. So, but at the same time, you know, the root cause is still inflammation.
And the problem with allergies is that a lot of the medications that are prescribed or recommended, even some over-the-counter, are steroids. And what they do is steroids just basically blunt everything. So they blunt every type of inflammatory response, even the good ones. And it’s a very intricate, complicated system where there’s many pathways involved, and they talk to each other. So you can’t just shut everything down because some of the pathways, the beneficial pathways are also shut down. And those are what you need to signal your body to repair.
So, you know, like getting back to the cold and flu symptoms, the first symptoms, like when you start feeling those first symptoms, that’s when your body wants to start turning on the repair pathways. And that’s why we formulated Biovanta to help your body do that. And a lot of the other products, the over-the-counter products, are actually going to get in the way of those repair pathways because they’re creating more damage to the respiratory lining. So it’s the same, unfortunately, with a lot of these allergy medications. You know, people that it’s known there are many, many scientific papers that people that take medicine for allergies, especially steroids, are more prone to getting sick. Because those first signaling pathways for inflammation and the body’s response are all shut down.
Katie: That makes sense. And I know you said with what you guys developed, you’re not blunting those natural processes. And I do want to make sure we talk specifically about Biovanta. But before we do, are there any other things, especially for the moms listening, that we can know sort of preventatively ahead of the time to support the body and the root cause, especially when it comes to allergies? I know I’ve talked about how diet can come into play there, for instance, or our lifestyle habits or the things that we’re interacting with in our environment. But are there steps we can take within our households to preemptively support the body and help with the allergy equation?
Nazlie: Oh, yes. So I’m sure a lot of your listeners already know this. But, you know, don’t, don’t be scared about letting your kid get dirty because, you know, the hygiene hypothesis. So along the lines of the different pathways, there are different response pathways that our body has towards different types of microbes. And that if you’re more exposed to the microbes that you come in contact with, you know, like in soil or just around the house or pets or any sort of like bacteria or virus that, you know, that you come in contact with will activate those pathways. And it’ll help your body or your children’s body, especially when they’re young, to, you know, have some, some kind of something to actually really fight against.
But if those pathways don’t get turned on, you know, early enough and often enough, then you’re more susceptible to getting allergies. It’s just because these pathways are always balanced and the microbial pathways turn off the allergy pathways. It’s if you want to get really technical, it’s, it’s a TH type one versus a type two inflammatory response, and they kind of shut each other off. So if you don’t have any type one exposure, which comes from like microbes and viruses and stuff like that, you’re going to be to your body is going to be too primed to do a type two response, which is more like an allergic response. So that’s one.
But also, you want to make sure that your children are not exposed to too many allergens. Because if you have too much stimulation of those inflammatory pathways at the same time, like if you have a little exposure to an allergy and you happen to get sick at the same time, that’s too much inflammation for the body to handle. And it also can get primed towards more inflammation, towards a more allergic response. The more you can have air filters to keep allergens, especially household dust levels low on or, you know, just to keep anything that would cause an allergic response, to keep those levels low. Also, you know, mindful of the kinds of fabrics you use around children. I mean, with foods, it’s best to expose kids to a lot of foods early to, I mean, again, speak with your doctor, but, you know, to prevent allergies. There’s a lot of science on that. But with airborne allergens, it’s actually the opposite. You want to keep those low. It’s not like if you get more exposure to like household dust and you’re less likely to get allergies, you’re more likely to get allergies. So, you know, it’s best to keep those because it just overwhelms the respiratory system.
Katie: Such good advice. I remember years ago having a doctor on the podcast, Dr. Pedram Shojai, who recommended similar things to what you just said for the allergy part of the equation. He said, you know, we’ve in some ways done our kids a disservice by becoming afraid of every type of microbe. And that he’s like, if you look at the data, there’s actually a benefit to having, like you said, pet exposure to letting kids play in the dirt. Like that’s actually very helpful for their immune system and to getting natural sunlight. And I think those are things we’ve moved away from somewhat in modern society. And so I love that the more we learn, the more we also get the reminder to go back to nature in that sense. And also the early exposure to food that you mentioned, I think is a really valuable point as well. I got to work with a company called Ready, Set, Food that does that like very careful early exposure to foods to actually help avoid allergies later in life. And the data on that’s pretty incredible as well. So I love that you’re bringing light to that.
I would love to also talk about Biovanta specifically, since you’ve alluded to it a few times in this episode, but let people know the mechanisms that’s happening within it, why it’s so effective. I know that there’s some really fascinating data you guys have found in your initial research on this already. And actually I got to try it in my family and timing worked out absolutely perfectly because right as it arrived, all of my kids came down with initial cold symptoms. So we got an immediate test case to use it. But talk about why it’s different than the over-the-counter medications that we’ve already talked about and where people can find it.
Nazlie: Okay, yeah, well, glad, I’m so glad it worked for you. And happy to send you more anytime. Yeah, so we’ve been developing Biovanta for over 10 years, and we’re very careful to be mindful, you know, the pathways that we need to address to help the body heal, but at the same time, minimize damage and minimize symptoms because the symptoms are uncomfortable. You know, and there’s a delicate balance, like the symptoms are not, they’re not in and of themselves helpful or good. They’re just a necessary by-product of your body fighting off the infection. So it’s okay to want to like alleviate the symptoms, you know, because like, obviously, like it gets to a point where like, you’re like, okay, you know, I am like super stuffed, you know, really don’t feel good. So you do want to feel better. So, you know, Biovanta does do that. You know, we did do a clinical study, which we’re in the process of publishing right now. It was submitted to be peer reviewed and it’s hopefully going to come out soon.
But you do want to also boost your body’s repair pathways. So that’s, that’s what, that’s what Biovanta does. It boosts the repair pathways, which is another important benefit of aspirin over any of the other drugs that you might take for fever. Aspirin, along with omega-3 fatty acids, are one of the only two things known to help the body build up resolvents. And also glutathione, which is made by the body in the liver, which again, Tylenol depletes. So all of these things boost resolvins and resolvins are really important for helping your body heal. So they’re turned on, you know, by the inflammation, but they’re, you know, and some people are more, you know, turn them on more strongly than others and, you know, they get better faster. So, yeah, so it’s those resolvins are key and aspirin is one of the few things that are known to help with that.
Katie: Yeah. And I feel like people may not know that. I didn’t know that about aspirin until I started researching you. I do know that people have used it in other use cases for other physiological things as well, especially like low dose aspirin. I even know athletes who have used that very selectively. But can you just clarify, so that doesn’t carry the same like liver burden, for instance, that acetaminophen does or negatively affects the body in the way that other painkillers might.
Nazlie: Yes, exactly. Yes. Acetaminophen definitely depletes the liver of glutathione. I mean, the aspirin needs to be metabolized in the liver like anything else. But it’s not going to deplete your body of glutathione, or you know, do anything negative besides that.
Katie: That makes sense. And as you’ve explained it and sort of unwound some of these issues, we probably didn’t even know about over-the-counter medication. I can’t help but think of it. it’s almost like a similarity to like big pharmaceutical seems to remind me of some of the things we talk about with other guests about big food and how the whole landscape of that has changed in like the mass messaging related to that. And I think you’ve spoken about this as well in the past, but do you find similarities there as well?
Nazlie: Yeah, for sure. You know, it’s just, I mean, you know, the misleading marketing, the just. You know, taking out the microphone and not letting anyone else, you know, have a voice. It’s just, yeah, very similar. And, you know, not being truthful and mindful and intentional. And just looking at grabbing market share at all costs. I mean, it’s just like the similarities are endless. And, you know, I really think it’s a shame because we have there’s so much science out there that is not being used. There’s so much in the scientific literature that could be brought out. You know, even Biovanta, like we didn’t, we didn’t invent, you know, everything, we just kind of put it together. And so, you know, I just feel like, you know, I hope that there’s a chance for other companies to be able to do that in health and food, you know, in the environment, it would be just a much better world.
Katie: And as we get close to wrapping up, where can people get Biovanta to try it, especially as we are in cold and flu season and allergy season and all of these things are so prominent right now?
Nazlie: Yeah, so our website is a great place, biovanta.com. We are on Instagram, Facebook. And you can find us on Amazon. We’re also in Publix, almost, I think, 700 or 800 locations. They have a total of a little over 1,000, so not in every, but in most Publix. We’re also in CVS, select locations, but many of them. We have a where to buy on our website where you can put in your zip code and find out if it’s at your neighborhood CVS. And we’re also expanding into independent pharmacies and others as well. We’re also at Mother’s Market. But it’s best to go to our website because we handle the shipping there and we make sure we’re always stocked up.
Katie: Awesome. Well, I will link to that in the show notes, but this has been such a fascinating conversation about the root cause of cold and flu and a better way to approach it. And I’m so grateful for your time today. I know I learned a lot. Thank you so much for being here.
Nazlie: Thank you so much.
Katie: And thank you as always for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of The Wellness Mama Podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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