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Hello, and welcome to The Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And this episode, I love it. It unites two concepts I’ve talked about before, and it talks about physical health in relation to emotions and specifically the physical benefits of letting go with some fascinating learnings from migraine sufferers that actually relate to all of us. And I really enjoyed this episode because I’ve seen firsthand the benefits of some of the things we talk about in my own life. And my guest, Diane, is able to explain them in a way I haven’t heard united so well before. Diane Ducarme is the founder and CEO of Nectar Health, which is a company that adds years to the lives of those suffering with migraine disease. And her work is absolutely fascinating because it extends to all of us. And she has an MBA from Harvard. She’s the Fulbright Scholar and an Edmund Hillary Fellow. She also has a master’s in science, engineering, technology, and mathematics, and studied traditional Chinese medicine in China. She’s now with the Academy of Healing Nutrition. And she speaks seven languages. So much great information in this podcast. She really unites the science of how our emotions relate to our physical health through lens of migraine sufferers, but also in a way that really truly relates to all of us. I cannot wait to share this episode with you. So let’s jump in now. Diane, welcome. Thank you so much for being here today.
Diane: Thank you for having me, Katie.
Katie: Well, I am really excited about the topics we’re going to get to talk about. But before we jump into those, I also have a note from your bio that you speak seven languages, which is absolutely mind-blowing to me. And I’m so curious what languages they are.
Diane: So my mother tongue is French. And then I learned Dutch, Flemish in Belgium because you can’t get away with it, without it. And then I moved to London with my family when I was 15 and I learned English. And then at school, there was no Dutch, so I changed to German. Which I picked up decently fast. And then I thought, wow, the world’s so much bigger than just Belgium. I’m keen to travel. So I went to Costa Rica to learn Spanish, and I studied in Mexico as well as an exchange student. And then I did a month of painting in Italy. To do Italian painting, which was really, really wonderful. And then last but not least, I went to China, and I went with a few questions. It was in 2004. I came back with way more questions and way more interest. And so, I tried to learn Mandarin, which I thought I’d never speak. And now I speak fluently, and my kids speak, you know, as well somewhat.
Katie: Wow, that is absolutely incredible. You might be the only guest I’ve ever had that can speak so many languages. And what a testament. I’m just trying to learn Japanese right now, and it’s bending my brain in ways I’ve never experienced. So kudos to you. That’s absolutely incredible. And on top of speaking seven languages, which I feel is a lifetime achievement in and of itself, you also have a tremendous amount of knowledge about a lot of topics. I wish I could just spend all day learning from you. But the first one I really want to dive into, I know that you help many, many people with migraines and especially women. And in researching for this, some words came up that I immediately was magnetized to, which was the idea of letting go and especially how this is actually connected to migraines. Because the book Letting Go was life-changing for me. And since then, I’ve sort of been on a journey of the emotional side of understanding things. And you brought in the tie-in to migraines with this, which I think is incredible. So to start off a little bit broad, maybe walk us through some of the basics of understanding migraines. Because I know many people who suffer from them, and I haven’t personally. But also how letting go ties into this concept.
Diane: So migraines, look, if you suffer from migraines, you know exactly what they are. For the part of the audience who doesn’t, migraine is a genetic disease. It is basically not just the head pain, but it’s a full-body experience. And a migraine attack is something that can last on paper anywhere between four hours up to three days. So think labor pain, labor level pain, giving birth, the highest form of pain you can experience. And really just three days can be a lifeline. So some people start to have a migraine and that migraine never finishes. And it’s very brutal and it’s highly debilitating. So it prevents women in particular, but also men and children, to be active in their social life, to work, to take care of their loved ones.
And so these migraine attacks are full-body experiences in the sense that they encompass a lot more symptoms than just the head pain, which sometimes may also be silent in rare occasions. And these other symptoms can be vomiting, nausea. And I think dots and prisms in the vision, having trembling sensations in the hands and the arms, numbness. But also bloating, etc. Yeah.
Katie: And I know several people personally who seem to experience extremely severe migraines like you’re talking about. And I know from just interacting with them how helpless they can feel in those moments and how debilitating, like you said, it is. And I know from researching you for this interview, it seems like there is actually there’s hope for migraine sufferers, even though it has a genetic component. It seems like people are able to do things that are helpful for that. Is that what you experience in your work?
Diane: Absolutely, absolutely. So what society tells these people is that they need to be silent and they need to medicate and they need to accept. There are ways to actually using the latest of Western science and the latest of traditional Chinese medicine and combining those two to find the root cause of their migraines and to act on these root causes that sit on top of genetics and completely transform their lives. And so this is what I’ve been doing for the last five years. So you start by asking me, you know, what languages do you speak? I speak seven. I think the eighth one is a language of migraine. A migraine, if anything, is a message from your brain to signal a problem in your body.
Katie: That makes sense. And I feel like hopefully not too many people experience severe migraines. And I know you directly help the people who do. But I feel like when you tie in the concept of letting go, this is actually something that applies to every single person listening in a very important way. And so I’m really excited to learn from this on you. Because like I said, this has been a part of my personal journey and one I’m really excited to learn more about in our conversation today. Before we jump into the how to let go and the benefits of letting go, can you also talk about the downsides of what happens if we don’t let go?
Diane: Yeah, if we don’t let go, there’s a lot of ripple effect. So basically, if you think of letting go of a negative emotion or a toxic relationship, and you hang on to that toxic relationship or you hang on to that negative emotion, of course, it’s going to have an impact on your brain. But it doesn’t stop there because you have this beautiful gut-brain axis. It’s going to sooner or later start to impact your gut. And all of your main organs. And so we’re going to start to get into a massive domino effect that’s going to impact your overall health.
Katie: And I would guess maybe people listening might wonder, like, I think a lot of my listeners are well-versed in that our emotions do, of course, impact our physiology. But someone suffering from something like a migraine might wonder, like, can the emotional aspect of this, can letting go of emotions actually have that drastic of an effect that it can actually help our physiology as well?
Diane: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe I’ll start with a really particular story. When I started to do this, you know, I first had two Alexandras. And those two Alexandras were, one was my sister. I helped her to get out of her migraines with Dr. Zhang that I work with now for the last five years. Wonderful human. And I helped the daughter of a neurologist also get rid of her migraines. And that was a lot more odd for me. The dad was recommending a lifetime of medication, including having injections in her brain. And by asking a lot of questions to her via WhatsApp and exchanging with my doctor with WeChat, I was able to recommend her food, just food, and get rid of her migraines in four months. And though that was really bizarre, because 18% of women have it, you know, it came to my home very quickly after two friends of friends. One was Jessica and the other one for confidential matters we’re going to call her Beatrix.
So Jessica had had a lifetime of migraines. They were sporadic. But after a concussion, she started to have them on a daily basis. So on a daily, she was suffering from migraines. She would only be able to concentrate for 10 hours a week. And the doctor has said, look, medicate, go back to work, take some antidepressants. You’re not taking medications enough. And that’s why you’re in pain. And she said, you know, I have so many side effects from the medication. Please, like, you know, there has to be something wrong with my body. No, everything’s in order. Get back to work, take antidepressants. And so, I helped her, and it took two months. And so this is an amazing, amazing story. And these women, they started to, you know, testify on something called Migraine Heroes Podcast, which is incredible, the stories of these women.
But then that same day came another woman. And this is where I really want to deep dive on letting go. This is another woman and she had had migraines for 30 years. And she was taking at the time six triptans a day, five days a week. If you have migraines, you know how impressive that level of medication is. And so we started working together, identified her imbalances. There were several, of course. And so we started working and slowly her body was starting to recover. So the intensity and frequency of her migraines were disappearing or decreasing in time.
And one day, out of the blue, they massively spiked up, massively. And I really thought, okay, what is it? I looked at her data, her tracker. I’m like, okay, did I give her something to eat that was wrong? Am I missing something? What’s the weather like? I was really not understanding that data form because I collate all of the data together to be able to help others faster. And so I called her. And I say, look, I’m so sorry, Beatrix, on how you feel. I’m sorry that you’re in so much pain. And then she interrupts me, and she says, my daughter tried to commit suicide. And I just listened. And this was the last thing I was expecting. And I listened, I supported her, I did my best, and I hung up. And I thought, wow, what? What happened? And I started to see her pain that she’s experiencing is really linked to that really strong emotion that she’s experiencing. So the pain of her daughter and her empathy and love for her daughter is translating in her body and her body is not experiencing pain as well. And it really, really, really struck me. I thought, oh my God, I just, I so much did not see that coming.
Katie: Wow, that’s incredible. And it makes sense when you explain it, but it really highlights just how intricately those things are connected. And I think often, at least in the US, we often maybe discount how deeply our emotions can actually really affect our physiology. And I know I had that experience in a much smaller way, just in resolving some emotional trauma I had, and seeing my body change, and it become easier to lose weight, and my thyroid issues resolved. And it really opened my eyes to, wow, this connection is much stronger than perhaps we’ve ever explored.
Diane: Absolutely. And so what happened is that for the last number of decades, we have taken women out of clinical trials. It started in the 60s with a medication called thalidomide that created a lot of children, being 10,000 kids in Germany alone, born without limbs because of nausea medication for pregnant woman. And so it traumatized the whole industry. And I thought, oh my God, we have to remove women from clinical trials because they might be pregnant if they don’t tell you they’re not pregnant. They might become pregnant. And then there’s something a lot more interesting is when you look at rats, lab rat studies, those are also done on male rats and not for the baby story, but because the data of female rats are not always explainable. And so beyond the cycle, beyond the feminine cycle, there seems to be other stuff that can’t be explained. And therefore, we were taken out of the equation thinking, you know, women don’t make quite so much sense. Yeah.
Katie: Yeah, I know that’s been talked about a little bit is how women are largely still excluded from medical research and almost completely so until 1993. And I understand that we have more hormone variables and things that make us a little bit more tough subjects. But like you’re saying, this is also a disservice to women because we are excluded from the research that might help us the most. But also, I love that you take that root cause approach. And even if women are being excluded from medicine, looking at the ways with each person individually that can help resolve their specific issue, because I find that I say often here, you know, we’re each our own primary healthcare provider. And while, yes, we might be an N of one study personally, for us, that’s the most important N of one study we could ever do.
Diane: Completely, you know, like, yeah, absolutely. I’m just so much with you, so much with you. And so, and so what was fascinating is that I kept on seeing that pattern in rare occasions, but whenever I would see something not making sense, I’d pick up the phone. It would be my son had their first epilepsy crisis. It would be my husband lost his job. It could be, you know, I have such a bad and toxic boss. It could be, you know, all of these things happening in their life or like a really toxic partner or, you know, in-laws living in the same roof. And so in all of these instances, while we were repairing things in their body, they would keep on breaking down. And so this is the moment where I started to think, okay, in addition to all of the foods that we recommend women, we need to start to teach them how to cope with these massive negative emotions and tough relationships and how to teach them to let go.
Katie: Yeah, I remember that quote, something along the lines of holding on to anger is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. But it seems like these negative emotions really do actually impact us the most. And the good news there is that we do have the ability to shift our emotions and our inner experience. But I don’t think that’s something that’s commonly taught. So can you walk us through like, it sounds like a great theory. I’m guessing those people are listening going, yeah, I want to let go of these emotions. But how do we actually do that? Because I’m guessing the process is not quite so simple as just deciding to do it either.
Diane: Absolutely, absolutely. So how to let go? How to let go. So emotions are really positive. It’s just staying stuck in a single emotion is actually very dangerous. So I’ll say that one more time because it’s really important. Emotions by and of themselves are positive. It’s staying stuck in a single emotion that is very detrimental. Now, how do you not stay stuck as you consciously decide to change emotions. So let’s imagine I have that toxic boss. Okay. And so I’m feeling very angry about that boss. What I can decide to do is I’m going to be angry for a certain amount of time. Then I’m going to decide to change emotion, and I’m going to decide to cry. Crying is a very good opposite emotion to anger. And so you’re going to decide to cry. The best way is probably Netflix, you know, and you decide to take a really, really sad movie on Netflix and you go and you cry. When you cry, you’re going to let go of tears, some of which are going to contain that toxin. So when you have anger, something needs to come out. So this is one way to make something come out and completely shift emotion. You can also decide to go and do cardio and sweat, if sweating doesn’t accentuate dizziness or vertigo for you. You can also decide to go out and shout. But crying is a really, really efficient way to let go of the anger. And then you’ll see your anger will dissipate, and you might get back into the angry zone, which is fine. And then you’ll decide consciously to get out of it again.
Katie: Yeah, that’s a helpful tip. And probably for the moms listening, one I think of sometimes to be aware of as a mom, especially like I can remember instances in my own childhood when I was crying and was told like, it’s okay, don’t cry. And when you explained crying is helping those emotions process, I’ve tried with my kids as much as possible and by no means perfectly, but to not tell them it’s okay when they’re having a big emotion, but to try to understand their emotion and give them space to feel it. Or even things with like two-year-olds and temper tantrums. I’m like, they’re processing rage in their bodies and letting it leave. And as adults, we learn that skill of packing it all down and keeping it in, but maybe their response is much healthier. And I actually even had a therapist one time encouraged me to on purpose, throw a temper tantrum in my bed in a safe place and just let that process through my body. And I was shocked how much of a difference I felt from actually giving that emotion space to exist so that it could leave.
Diane: Completely. It needs to leave your body. You’re describing it super well. And so let the anger go fully. You know, there’s something in Chinese that says, [inaudible], it means like go to the ends of your anger. Express it, expel it. And you can really encourage a child to do that. And if the child wants to cry, just let them cry. Sometimes it’s funny, my husband says, oh, stop crying. And I’m like, well, just let it go. Let’s, you know, cry a good time. And it’s positive. And then once you cry it’s finished, then we can continue the conversation. It’s completely positive.
Let’s talk about stress, for example. If you’re really stressed, really anxious, you can get angry at something as well. You can try to find something that really annoys you and get mad at it. Just make a fuss about something as a mom. And that’s going to get you out of your anxious zone, out of your stress zone. And it’s very positive. Another one I find really, really good that I personally do, sometimes you go through family things that are really difficult. And I found my way through stand-up comedies. And you just, you know, take, again, you go on YouTube this time. Maybe I love Montreux, which is like this, you know, French stand-up comedy gathering. There’s like lots in the world. And you find your best stand-up comedian people. And it’s 10 minutes of your time. It just makes you laugh. It makes your diaphragm move. It changes your breathing pattern. And it allows you to let go of the other emotions you were hanging on to.
Katie: Yeah, I love that. And yeah, like you said, I think maybe kids are inherently a little better about this until we train them not to be. And I’ve even said to my kids at times, like when they’re crying, saying like, oh yeah, sometimes I cry too. And what big emotions are you feeling right now? And just giving them space, a safe space to feel that. And I’ve often, maybe that’s what adults need as well, like you’re talking about. And I think you have such a unique combination of knowledge here of that Eastern and Western traditions in medicine meeting and how they can both be beneficial. But is there any research or data on either the Western medical side or in Eastern medicine about how emotions connect to the body and how letting go actually can help change our physiology?
Diane: Yeah, in traditional Chinese medicine, it’s omnipresent. They say you understand the gut-brain axis. Oh, my God, it goes much beyond. Of course, the brain communicates to the gut, the gut to the brain. But the emotions will impact the organs and the organs will impact the emotions. So why that is important, and here I drill on traditional Chinese medicine, is if you feel angry, the more you feel angry, just the way you were describing Katie, it’s just like if you had eaten poison. So your liver level of toxicity massively increased. Okay. From that moment, because the liver system is going to do a ton of other jobs, there will be consequences to that. So your liver system in traditional Chinese medicine is in charge of your liver, your gallbladder. A lot of the parts of your brain, your tendons, all of your female hormones, your mood hormones, and it sort of irrigates your entire body of yin and noble liquids.
Okay, so when you stuck up the energy for anger in a constant manner, you do not allow for the liver system to get done and get on with its other jobs. And so this is where women are going to start to feel a domino effect of other symptoms that are completely irrelated in appearance, but are completely related inside. So she’s going to start to have bloating. Extension of the biliar area. This is the digesting slowing down. She might have sore breasts. Okay, the toxins starting to accumulate in her breasts because the body’s trying to get rid of them. She might have more migraines, specifically on the temples, across the eyebrows, on the top of the head. She might also feel numbness, numbness in the legs, numbness in the arms. She might have tingling sensation of cramps and spasms. And because she starts to have all of these sensations, it’s quite scary. And so they all come from there. So the moment you’re going to let go and change emotion, the more you’re going to leave the liver system to rest and do its normal job that it’s supposed to do otherwise. And, you know, get busy with another system that you give a kick to.
There’s something else you can do, by the way. I really want to teach you, and it’s really important. You can also use foods and infusions in order to dissipate an emotion. For example, if you feel recurring angry, one way to get out of it is to have a chamomile infusion with eight to 10 goji berries. Goji berries are adaptogens and they’re incredible. So eight to 10 is just more than enough to have a good dose. And chamomile will detox and stimulate the liver. Both will do that. And so that’s going to really help us nourish our liver, stimulate it, and get it going with its other job while detoxing it on the way. Really important note. Do not have that if you are on a FODMAP diet and do not have that when you have your menstruation. Otherwise, you’d bleed more. If you feel very, very anxious and stressed, another one which is really really cool is a black sesame and walnut powder. So you basically roast 100 grams of black sesame. You roast 100 grams of walnuts. You blend them and you store that powder in your fridge. You have two tablespoons a day. This is going to massively help, especially around perimenopause with a ton of hormones. But also it’s going to, if you start to have a bit of white hair because of stress prematurely, it’s going to restore and feed your kidney system and restore that health of your hair. If you do that for a couple of months.
You can also ease your weight, out of letting go, if that makes sense. Let go with food. Maybe I’ll share that, you know, one story I had a man in the US who again, goes better, better, better, better, better. And then suddenly he contacts me and says, I have this massive migraine, you know, this thing’s not working. And I was like, okay, okay, I’m sorry. I don’t know. I’m looking at your data. I’m clearly lacking context. I’m so sorry. What’s happening? And is there anything I’m not aware of? And he says, my father just died. And I look at his data, and we have ways to look at the vagus nerve through the data. I said to him, look, I apologies, I see more anger and resentment and I don’t quite see grief. And I really want to make sure I calibrate your foods properly. And he said, look, like my relationship with my dad has been horrendous. I am indeed very angry. I’ve done years of therapy and please don’t make me go there. And I said, it’s okay. Just have these few foods that will detox your liver and help stimulate it. And that will help the anger dissipate. And it dissipated in a couple of days, in a couple of days his brain was, you know, free to enjoy life again so you can’t, I also want to acknowledge you can’t always let go so easily and that respect for them are helpful.
Katie: That’s so fascinating. And the tip about the black sesame and the walnut powder, that’s a great tip. And all these stories really highlight that really intense connection that again, I feel like we’ve lost in the Western world. And I know there’s a flip side to this too, like all the positive things that happen when we let go of negative emotions and when we nurture joy. So I’d love to talk about those some, if you’re willing, of what happens physiologically in the body when those emotions let go. Like I know I’ve heard in extreme example, stories of people who had terminal cancer, for instance, who chose to laugh a whole lot and without the medical treatment, because there was nothing they could do, they resolved. And the medical world was kind of shocked by this, but it seems there’s also a tremendous benefit to really like nurturing those positive emotions of peace and joy and calm. So what are the physical benefits of letting go? And what happens when we physiologically, when we do?
Diane: Yeah, so let’s take the example of that person you were mentioning. So they’re in a state of cancer and they start to laugh. They start to take some of their emotions out and change emotion. When you laugh, you’re going to make your breathing slightly uneven. And you’re going to start to, by there, like start to stimulate your diaphragm. So your diaphragm is going to start to move up and down in a bit of an unexpected manner. Now, the system or the organ, which is just below your diaphragm, is your liver.
So the same way as a person has a heartbeat, they also have a liver beat. And the liver beat is that breathing, is that diaphragm that sits just on top of it. So not consciously knowing it, that person is stimulating their liver system. Now, the liver system is going to get so much more energy to get done so much of what it needs to get done. And most of all, then once the liver gets really well, it’s like a sister and brother with the kidney system. Now, in the kidney system, I have the kidneys, the bladder, the adrenals. I have behind the head. I have the ability to ovulate, the ability to resist to stress, and then the ability to have to deploy my immune system for these big diseases, okay? And so from the moment the liver system is going to work much better, the kidney system is going to have some of its to-do lists lifted by the liver system. And the kidney system being much less stressed is going to be able to perform well and do the job that this amazing body of ours is supposed to do. The body wants to heal.
Katie: That’s incredible. And it makes me wonder, so like if letting go improve some of our organ systems, is the reverse true as well? Like if we improve some of our organ systems, does that make it easier to let go? Like is sometimes it harder to let go if we have physical things that are slowing that down as well?
Diane: Yes, completely. Yes, absolutely. And so it’s sometimes, especially with really tough and strong emotions, to take it from different angles. You can take from an angle of meditation, yoga, and calming your thoughts down. You can take it from an angle of letting go by changing emotion. You can take it from an angle of food so that all of these combined allow you to get out of that vicious circle.
And if you see someone, if you have a loved one who struggles to let go of an emotion, you can also fabricate, architect an emotion. So for example, if you have someone who’s completely depressed, you can fabricate a massive reason for them to be really angry. So you do something really mad at them. And then they become super angry. They’re going to get out of that depression feeling. They’re going to come alive. They were really silent, and they were introverted, and they were not talking, and they were not looking. Now they’re staring you with big eyes and they’re shouting. And so that’s going to help them get better. So yeah, so you can also provoke each other, help each other if you see that happening in a family, you know, that’s why sometimes we tend to tease our kids, you know, when they’re really mad. You make a joke, you crack a joke, you try to change topic. Yeah, I think that’s also letting go, change topics.
Katie: Yeah, that’s fascinating. And the idea of actually doing it with anger, like I could see most people might think like, okay, kid’s upset, fabricate laughter or happiness, but how you just pointed out, even sometimes anger might help the depression and the sadness process through. It’s like that change of mental state.
Diane: Yeah, and it’s easier to ask to a person or to self to go from a negative mental state to another negative mental state. And it’s fine. It does the job. At the end of the day, you just want the job done.
Katie: Do you have any, I know you have a lot of resources online and that you work with people directly. I want to make sure we speak to that for anyone who’s actually suffering with migraines as well. But where can people find you online to keep learning more about this process of letting go? And it seems like there is a very individual component to it as well, that different things work for different people.
Diane: Yeah. So my website is mynectarhealth.com. Nectar, like the flower, like the food. And you can find us on Instagram @mynectarhealth. Yeah. And then what you do is you can take a test, and that test is quite incredible. It’s like 95, 97 questions that relate to all of the symptoms that you might feel. And from there, we can really infer the imbalances, the root cause of the imbalances going on in your body. And then we meet, and we debrief on that. And women love this conversation because they’re like, finally, my body is actually making sense. I’m experiencing all of these symptoms and now I understand them. I think understanding is the first process. The first step to recovery.
Katie: Well, the stories you share are incredible about people recovering from things. And I love that that also involves them getting more in tune with their emotions and learning how to let go of the negative ones. And I love that you’ve brought the science to this and the Eastern and Western traditions and united that in a way that’s directly helping people. So I’ll link to your website and also to that questionnaire. I’ll make sure to find a link before this airs because I think for too long, at least in the Western world, we’ve ignored that mind, body, and emotional connection. And I love that you are bringing it back with such hard data and science and really impact on people. So, thank you so much for that work that you do.
Diane: Yeah, and we run everything like a clinical trial. We take data every day, and I think a big part of me was like, can we just prove that this is existing? There was a big part of me that just wanted to do that. Yeah, so thank you so much, and maybe I’ll mention the one last one, is The Migraine Heroes Podcast, it’s amazing, it’s really women who went through the mud, they went through hell, and they’re coming, and not sponsored, they’re just coming to you to say, hey, this is the journey I’ve had, and this is, you know, the nonsense of my life, and this is the life I have now so their coming to help other women are the same.
Katie: That’s wonderful. I’ll link to that as well and also send it to the people I know who are experiencing migraines and hopefully it brings them some resolution as well. Thank you so much for all the work that you do and for being here today.
Diane: Thank you, Katie.
Katie: And thank you for listening. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of The Wellness Mama podcast.
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