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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
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Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And this episode is all about the 10 root cause drivers of cancer and what to do about them. And I’m here with Katrina Foe, who is, she became a practitioner after getting her own breast cancer into remission 100% naturally. And she’s board certified in holistic nutrition. And she’s been in this field since she opened her studio at the age of 24. She’s also a homeschooling mom. She has seven kids. So one of my few guests that has more kids than me. And she has an international bestseller called Nutritional Pilates: Relieve Joint Pain, Lose Unwanted Weight, and Prevent Chronic Disease to Become Your Most Vibrant Self! And in this episode, we go deep on her own cancer journey and what she learned from that and how she now helps many people to do the same thing. So let’s join Katrina Foe. Katrina, welcome. Thanks so much for being here.
Katrina: Oh, it’s my pleasure, Katie.
Katie: Well, I’m excited to learn from you today. And before we jump into our actual topic, it is not often I meet someone who actually has more kids than I do. And so I just would love to hear from another mom who has so many, especially because it sounds like we’ve had some similar birth experiences, but I have not gone fully unassisted. So I would love to hear what that was like.
Katrina: Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I’ve got seven. They were all homebirths. We did one hospital transfer, which was unnecessary. And then the last three were unassisted. It was really nice because I knew what I was doing by that point. And it was just a matter of knowing and having the trust in my body that it was okay. And I knew what position to get into and I could handle that.
Katie: Well, that’s incredible. I’ve gotten to be there for a friend who was going unassisted, but I have not done it myself. So that’s really cool that you got to have that experience. And the topic I’m excited to learn from you about today first is the topic of cancer and especially the root drivers of cancer, because I feel like, of course, there’s a lot of information that floats around on this topic. And it can, of course, be very controversial as well. So I think to start broad, maybe introduce us to some of the concepts of things people need to know that they may not already know in order of avoiding cancer in the first place because I feel like that’s a perfect case for that an ounce of prevention cliche.
Katrina: Absolutely. That is what I’m super passionate about because if I could do one thing, I would I’m super passionate about helping other people, other moms especially know what they can do proactively so that they don’t have to go through what I went through in terms of having cancer and having the diagnosis and having to figure out what was the reason that I was allowing my body was allowing the cancer to proliferate.
So the biggest thing is that, you know, less than 10% of cancers are genetically inherited mutations. I think most of us have grown up hearing that cancer is genetic and it’s just not true. We have amazing tools now and so many things that we can do epigenetically, so diet and lifestyle to actually prevent cancer. And it’s just really important that people understand that this is an uphill battle because we are in an environment nowadays, no matter where you’re at that there are so many toxins and influences that are working against us and that’s what I love about what you’re doing, Katie, because you are empowering and talking about these things every single day with women, and that’s what they really need to know.
Katie: Yeah. And I think even just the idea that it is more in our control than we thought is a message of hope for a lot of people. And it seems like that’s a message that’s showing up actually across the board when it comes to health is realizing that, you know, we all got so excited when we mapped the human genome. And then for a while, it seemed like everything got sort of relegated to the realm of genetics. And I love that we’re now finding it’s actually much less genetically predestined than we thought. And we have much more, like you said, epigenetic control, which actually puts us back in the driver’s seat of our own health and gives us a lot more freedom. Same thing with, you know, we hear many of the chronic diseases that we encounter in today’s world are sort of lifestyle based or metabolically based, which is awesome because that actually means they are within our control to at least change a lot of the factors related to. So if it’s not always genetic, what are some of the reasons why someone might experience cancer? So we can sort of like start taking a top-down approach to figuring out how to avoid those things.
Katrina: Yeah, this is where I get really excited because there’s 10 areas that I call the root cause drivers that are buckets that we have measurable tests that we can look at functionally to see what’s going on that have been shown in the research to be associated and correlated driving cancer. So the first one would be metabolic. So that has to do with your blood sugar. And this goes back to Otto Warburg’s work showing that a cancer cell is metabolically different and has shifted than what a regular cell is doing. And so when someone has cancer, they are broken metabolically and they may not know it. It doesn’t necessarily feel bad. And this is where you can look at the test ahead of time and see, oh, wow, I’m not doing well in this ahead of time.
Hormones. So, sex hormones, thyroid hormones. These are all shown and connected with when they’re off, you’re more predisposed to have cancer. I mean, if your thyroid’s not working optimally, you’re not powering all the other symptoms, sorry, systems to work well so that, you know, they’re not going to work well, and everything is not working well. Most people are familiar with the idea that the sex hormones can drive cancer. A lot of the common cancers that we talk about in terms of breast cancer, ovarian cancer, and such are very connected, but a lot of the other cancers are driven by skewed, imbalanced sex hormones as well.
The microbiome, so this has to do with the gut flora, but also if there’s pathogens that are throwing things off, preventing mineral creation, absorption, and the digestion. People just are not digesting their food. So it’s really awesome to eat super nutrient dense, but if you don’t digest it, you’re kind of throwing your money away, which is kind of offensive to me as a mom.
Stress. So this would be the adrenal hormones and that circadian rhythm, that sleep wake cycle. Especially for moms, we tend to get off, especially with those new babies. And this can really set us up for having those adrenals off, which is a huge problem for a lot of people.
Epigenetics we kind of mentioned. So some of us have some, you know, not great gene snips that predispose us to being off in these areas and doing some simple testing we can look at this and know, oh, this is my weak link. I need to do these extra steps. Not that it’s a death sentence at all. I just need to know what I need to work on so that I’m aware and can be proactive, not just, you know, guessing and such.
Immune. So the immune system, that’s where our body is designed to actually address and look for and attack rogue cancer cells on its own, that’s the design. But when that goes off, whether there’s some autoimmunity or just crazy low vitamin D levels or different, you know, other areas that are affecting the immune system, it can get overwhelmed. And we need to make sure that we support our immune system so that it can do its job.
Inflammation, inflammation is a huge driver. This is kind of the hallmark. This is what I use to monitor cancer clients to see when things are going sideways or flaring up. And basically, when someone has cancer, they are a ball of fire and that needs to be taken care of first and foremost so that other therapies can be successful.
Angiogenesis, this is a fancy term that means when your metabolism, when you’re metabolically broken, you are not functioning optimally. So you need way more glucose. And so in order for the cancer tumor to get more glucose, that blood sugar, it brings in and signals the body to make more blood vessels. And that process is called angiogenesis. So we don’t want that. We don’t want that tumor getting the fuel it needs to grow. And there’s markers that we can look at to see if that process is happening simple in the blood.
That environmental toxins. This is the big area that I think people aren’t looking at. So my clients, they’re educated. They’re mostly middle-aged moms. They know the stuff you shouldn’t do. They’re not eating canola oil. I can’t remember the last time I had that conversation. They’re cooking with stainless steel. They’re doing all this stuff. But it’s the stuff you don’t realize. Things like mold, heavy metals, different environmental chemicals that they don’t even know are in their water, in their air, and such. That’s what’s usually getting them. And I am over and over surprised, Katie, about the weird things that show up that then we get to do some detective work of where in the world is this coming from? Because it’s the stuff you don’t know that’s harming you a lot of times.
And then the last area, I think I got them all, is the emotional component. And this is the one that everyone kind of overlooks. And they kind of set it aside and they want to do the things that, you know, you can check off on your list and I take this pill and whatever. But having to really delve into the why of what’s going on in the body because our emotions are stored in our tissues. And if we have unresolved trauma, grief, strife going on, it’s going to set us up for cancer. And inevitably, when someone comes to me with a cancer diagnosis, what I see is that the year prior, there’s been something big that has really damaged that person’s heart. And so dealing with that just opens the gates for healing in a really profound way that most people aren’t talking about.
So that’s the 10 areas that I dive into. And as you can see, there’s a lot of different things, like the gut encompasses a lot of different areas. And my approach is to make sure that we test, we don’t guess, and we don’t miss anything. Because when someone has cancer, you want to make sure you have all the smoking guns on the table.
Katie: That makes sense. And I love that you brought in the emotional component as well because you’re right, I think that’s often overlooked, especially in a lot of the medical models. And I know firsthand, I haven’t had a cancer diagnosis, but in my own healing from Hashimoto’s, that ended up being a really important factor and one that I ignored for a very long time. And I know you also have a personal experience that shaped this mission in your life for you. And if you’re willing, can you share a little bit of that experience and maybe what some of the drivers that you found and identified in your own detective work, in your own story?
Katrina: Absolutely. Yeah. I did not get into this work originally. I didn’t go to college originally for this. I had my own cancer diagnosis. And again, I was doing all the stuff. It blew my mind because we had already done like two years of GAPS. Like we were making our own toiletries, all sorts of stuff. And everyone around me was like, how in the world did you get cancer? I have no idea. And so what I did is I stepped back and I’m like, clearly something I am doing is not right. I need to figure out what it is if I want to turn this around. And I had done enough education, listening to your podcast, other podcasts and reading and such that I knew that standard of care was not addressing the why. And I really wanted to figure out from the root cause. That was my thing.
So for me, metabolically, I was broken. I had no idea that I was insulin-resistant and really severely insulin-resistant. But the thing is like, I didn’t feel that. Like when you have high glucose running around, you feel really good. And I have people all the time, they’re like, no, I have no problem with that. I’m like, okay, well, we’ll see on the test. My sex hormones, it was about a year after baby number five that I found the lump and, it was during a metastasis or I’m sorry, uh, like a plug duct. And I found it and I’m like, oh, no big deal. I did my stuff that I know to do for the plug duct. And then when it went away, there was still a golf ball there. And I’m like, huh, that’s interesting. Because of all the babies and such, my hormones had gotten really off. I was super estrogen dominant. I was also very hypothyroid.
Now, for me, autoimmune was not my issue. It was just a run-of-the-mill vanilla hypothyroid, but it was still really off, which meant that all my systems weren’t getting powered up, like I mentioned. There was a lot of stress. We had just moved to a different state. So I didn’t have a support network. My adrenals were off from staying up with babies and all the nursing and everything. And we had huge environmental toxins. What I didn’t realize is that eight months before when we had moved, we moved into a house that was riddled with black mold. I have terrible detox components genetically to where like for me, I was not able to clear that, you know, I’m making another person and feeding them and then like trying to detox. It was just too much for my body.
And then you throw on there like the emotional component, there were a lot of things going on emotionally. And I’m right there with you. It took me eight years to get back and actually do that work. And I’m super grateful that my body was able to heal without completing that. But like to my clients, I’m always saying like, do that work first because it really just makes the whole healing process so much easier.
Katie: Well, and I can only imagine navigating that with little ones because I feel like when I had all toddlers, it was already such a chaotic time of life. So that’s incredible that you managed to find healing. And I’m sure that had positive ripples into your whole family and to your kids as well. And you mentioned the insulin-resistance. I’d love to dive a little deeper into the dietary side because I feel like even among people who are more naturally minded when it comes to cancer, this is a sort of controversial topic. And there’s some differing opinions on different directions you can go with this. I know my first sort of foray into understanding that world was reading the Metabolic Theory of Cancer, but I know that there’s many different perspectives. So I would love to hear what you found in your research, what worked for you, and what would be maybe an optimal diet to avoid cancer in the first place. And or if someone is in that experience, what are the things that they know that they can shift within their diet to help?
Katrina: Yes, I love that question. So when I had the cancer diagnosis, I was doing like a Weston Price kind of a diet, which I don’t think there’s anything wrong with. I’ll circle back around to that. But I kind of was diving into all the research and I realized like, I don’t want to just look at the side that I agree with, that I already think is right. I want to look at both sides so that I can be more unbiased because my life was at stake. I don’t want to make a mistake.
And so at the time, the big thing, and it still kind of is, was a plant-based raw vegan diet, which did not speak to me. But I’m like, let’s try it. I actually went down to a Gerson Clinic in Mexico. And was like, let’s do this. But I was asking a lot of questions. I’m like, okay, so why can’t I eat any salt? Like, why do I only get like a teaspoon of flaxseed oil a day? You know, why are you giving me thyroid hormones when you haven’t tested my thyroid? And the staff did not have any questions. And I was trying to be respectful, but I’m getting a little frustrated. And by the third day, the director of the clinic sat me down and he said, you know, Katrina, my staff’s been telling me you’ve been asking a lot of questions and I really think you just need to trust in the process. I almost lost it. I’m like, are you joking? If you had answers for me and could explain this, maybe we could work with that. But if you don’t have answers, this is my life. I’m sorry. And so he asked me to leave.
So I actually got kicked out of the cancer clinic and I am so grateful every day because what I know now after researching more and really looking into it is that was the worst thing for me. So if your listeners aren’t familiar, it’s a raw vegan diet where you’re juicing on an empty stomach like seven or eight times or more a day. Now they do do coffee enemas, which I’m a huge fan of, but the juicing was not what my body needed. It was fueling and continuing the insulin resistance that I already had. And what I found later, I alternately tried a ketogenic diet, and it was like a breath of fresh air.
So for the first a couple months, it took me to, and I was dialed in, like I was tracking my macros, weighing my food, all the stuff, but I was so broken. It took months. And usually I get a little frustrated because I see a lot of people talking online and they’re like, oh, in three days, you’ll be all better. And I’m like, no, if people are really messed up, it takes a long time to shift. And I just remember with that like first week, just laying in bed, my kids are like all around me. I’m like, just sit there. And I’m like, my nose itches. But that would be too much energy to itch it.
And but on the other side, the really cool thing is once I shifted metabolically, I was able to light up areas and heal areas that were not being addressed before. So my body runs not just cancer-wise to starve the cancer, but it also put my bipolar in remission 100%. Which was amazing. And no one is talking about how profound a ketogenic diet is for those with mental health issues. I had been white knuckling it for 20 years. And it’s completely in remission, which is amazing, a beautiful thing. That, to me, makes me so grateful for the cancer.
Katie: Well, and I love your mindset too, just to highlight a couple of things you said. I think for one, being able to not just confirm your own bias, but to question everything. I think that is one of the skills in life across the board that is so valuable. And finding gratitude. I slowly been able to do the same thing, both for having Hashimoto’s in the past and even some of the pretty severe trauma that I went through was realizing like at this point, I wouldn’t have chosen it, but I wouldn’t change it. I have so much gratitude for that journey. And I think also, I mean, there’s even studies now that show gratitude itself can be very healing and staying in a mindset of gratitude, even when we’re in the hard things often helps them feel a little less hard.
I’m guessing most people have heard of a ketogenic diet, but I also know from experience that a lot of people maybe think they’re doing a ketogenic diet and they’re not actually doing it, or there’s some pieces that they maybe don’t quite get right. So I’d love any guidelines you have for someone who’s wanting to shift more into that and or to hear your take on fasting and if you used fasting at all during your recovery and if you recommend it.
Katrina: Oh, yes. Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up. Because since my journey in healing, ketogenic diet has gotten really popular. And most of a lot of what you hear out there is not what I’m talking about. So I’m talking about a clean ketogenic diet, so not all the processed junk. And the macros, you need to have very, very high levels of fat, moderate protein. So this is not the bacon and beef patty diet. And then very, very low carbohydrates. So when you get the carbohydrates low enough, your body can then stop burning glucose, because that’s the first thing it’s going to burn priority wise, it’ll shift into creating ketones in your Krebs cycle.
So by making those, you know, that’s where a lot of therapeutic effects come in, as well as where like what I was describing in terms of my brain lighting up. But it also is starving the cancer, because remember, the cancer is going to be feeding on that glucose. So anytime your blood sugar is high, you’re giving it extra fuel. You want to have it in that like 70 to 90 range.
So what does that look like? I’m a big fan of having a lot of vegetables in there, which it’s probably might’ve sounded like I didn’t want if I’m not plant-based, but my plate looks like a big pile of vegetables. And I look at the vegetables as a conduit to carry the fat. Because who wants to eat like a spoonful of avocado oil mayonnaise? That’s disgusting. At least I think so. You know, and then there’s some fat on it. So maybe a big salad with lots of dressing and avocados and, you know, some meat on it or something. Or maybe it’s some kind of casserole. A lot of times I’ll hide the plants in it, you know, whether it’s a cauliflower mash or something where people don’t even necessarily know they’re getting as many vegetables as they are. But it’s a way to hold the fat.
Yeah, so most clients, when they come to me, kind of know what I’m about. They know I’m going to recommend keto and they’re kind of already doing it on their own. And this is where I start with them to refine because usually there’s three steps that they go through. First off, they get the carbs down. That’s not the problem. You would think that’s the problem, that’s not the problem. Yes, there’s usually some things like, oh, bell peppers are low carb, but they’re not that low carb. You can’t eat that many of them. There’s some refining there, but that’s not usually the issue.
The second thing is we got to get the fat high enough. Now, most of us, I know I grew up being inundated with low fat this, low fat that. Like, I actually remember my sister and I having contests to see who could eat the least amount of fat when we were teenagers. Like, so messed up. But it’s really disturbing, and it has to be very intentional to get enough fat. I have not seen anybody that naturally gets that much on their own. So we’re talking like 120 grams a day, which again, has to be intentional.
Then the third phase is they realize they’re eating too much protein. Again, when you are looking online, a lot of this stuff is very protein-dominant, more kind of Atkins-style. And that’s not really a ketogenic diet because if you eat too much protein, there’s a process called gluconeogenesis, good spelling words, you moms, that means that your body will take the protein and convert it into glucose, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place. So you don’t want too much. You don’t want more than your body’s going to use right then. And it’s usually a lot less than people think.
Katie: Yeah, and I think that’s important to highlight too, because for people, for instance, just focused on building muscle, they might be more protein-centered. But for someone who’s working through unraveling cancer in the body, that’s an entirely different metabolic thing happening. And that’s not going to be your growth phase for building muscles in the gym necessarily. That’s your getting your body in alignment. I definitely on my own have seen great results from fasting, and I don’t recommend anything to anyone to begin with, but I don’t think it’s necessary for everyone. But I did find that for me, it was a very helpful tool in getting my body to shift into ketosis more rapidly and also just all the cellular cleanup that happens with water fasting. And so, again, not that that’s recommended for everyone, but I personally found that pretty helpful.
You also touched on the environmental stuff and you’re right, I think most people listening are aware of keeping the really bad stuff out of their house. But then there’s these sneaky hidden ones that you mentioned that we might not even be aware of. Do you have resources for people in identifying those or even like where to start looking for those? And I think you might have had something else on the protein side, too.
Katrina: Yeah, sorry. I didn’t get to the fasting question. I love that. No, fasting I use with my clients, and I use myself regularly. So first off, I want to make sure that they are not hypoglycemic, which sometimes with people who are insulin-resistant, they can be double dipping. And as long as they’re not hypoglycemic, then I will take them into some fasting, starting with, you know, let’s kill the snacks, then moving into like, let’s spacing the frame of time that you are eating during the day. So like some intermittent fasting, and then eventually moving them into some water fasting. And again, it’s all very strategic as they’re able to handle that depending on their situation. But it is amazing to bring in autophagy, which is like a cellular healing phase where the body is not doing its normal function. It’s on cleanup mode. And that’s super key with cancer.
The big thing with the fasting is that you really want to make sure that you’re supporting your body. I find a lot of women, when they start doing intermittent fasting, they shorten up the time window they’re eating, but then they stop eating as much fat. And so you have to, again, make sure you get all the nutrition you need in just a smaller amount of time, which can feel weird to eat that much food in a short amount of time. So that’s one of the issues. But with cancer, the ketones, you’re wanting to get nutritional ketosis. That’s like 0.5 to like 2-ish. So it’s on the lower end. But to get into the therapeutic levels of like 3, 4 plus in terms of the ketones, you have to be fasting and or eating like exogenous ketones. So like taking a drink supplement of the ketones and such, you won’t get that high otherwise. And that’s where we really want to get cancer clients. So that fasting is really part of it. I feel like the ketogenic diet needs to be the first thing. And it’s a slow journey strategically through that whole process.
Okay, so the toxins. Love this. Yes, there’s lots of great resources. So if there’s mold involved, I recommend getting a good mold inspector. And this is, oh, this is such a crazy process. I just moved and had to go through the process myself. And again, it just hit me all over again, how awful this field is in terms of inconsistencies. So if you know that you have mold, so I did, I was recently re-exposed. I knew my levels were high. Like I’m really sensitive. I need to make sure. We are buying a new house so it’s a little different but if you’re in the current house you have to find where it’s coming from and stop it, that is the absolute first thing. So getting a good mold inspector, they should take several hours, they should be doing physical like hands-on seeing up in your crawl space and attic and all this stuff not just some air test that is not going to do it.
In terms of other areas, so you can do Google searches, cheap, easy, free, and just put in your postal zip code and see what shows up, like what toxins are in your area. Are there, you know, are you under a flight path? Are there any like factories around? Are there farms around that are spraying the glyphosate or anything? That kind of looking around and being aware of what’s in your neighborhood, by several miles can be a huge thing, free.
And the other thing that I have almost all my clients do, because it’s almost always an issue, is do testing of their water. So watercheck.com, no affiliate links. I just, they are the one that has the most robust tests. Now, I say the most because there are so many toxins in our water supply that we don’t even have tests for yet, that it’s kind of offensive. But, you know, getting a good RO sytem and then replenishing the good minerals. I don’t recommend the Berkey’s or the, you know, the Pitcher’s, Brita, all those kinds of things. You want something that’s really making sure that everything is taken out. Yeah, those are my favorite resources.
Katie: Awesome. And I’ll link to those in the show notes as well as I know you have a tremendous amount of resources online. I’ll make sure people can find those as well. And I think those are all awesome advice, even if you are not in a cancer diagnosis, but just preventatively, those are big factors that previous generations didn’t have to deal with that we now have to at least be aware of. And so I love that you touch on all of those.
And to your point on nutritional ketosis as well, I’ve seen that play out as well for people who haven’t tested that. I have a blood ketone monitor and it’s always fascinating to see like in normal daily life, I can get in that like 0.5 to 2 range. But on my last seven-day water fast, which I do at the beginning of the year, I was able to get up to like 6 point something through. And that doesn’t happen in normal range, but it’s cool to see that process and get that data. And I usually wear a glucose monitor and then test my ketones. And it’s just really fascinating to see that switch happen and to feel it within the body. Again, not that I recommend that to everyone or that everyone needs it, but I do think it can be a very valuable tool as well. And I know you have so many resources. Can you let people know where to find you to keep learning on any of these topics? And I’ll link to them in the show notes as well.
Katrina: Absolutely. So, Instagram is just my name, KatrinaFoe. On Facebook, it’s Nutritional Pilates. That’s the name of my book. And then I have a free ebook that goes over like all the different tests for these different root cause drivers, The Roadmap to Prevent Cancer Recurrence, which I’ll give you the link to as well. And my website is just cancerfreedom.com.
Katie: Awesome. Well, I’ll make sure all those are linked at wellnessmama.com for all of you who are on the go. And I think this is a topic that’s not well talked about, and I love how comprehensive you are on covering it. So thank you so much for your time and for all that you’ve shared today.
Katrina: Absolutely. My pleasure.
Katie: And thanks to you for listening and sharing your time with us today. I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of The Wellness Mama Podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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