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Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from WellnessMama.com and this episode is all about energetic time management, self trust and alignment. And I’m here with repeat guests Heather Chauvin, who is a leadership coach who helps ambitious but overwhelmed women break free from their fears to courageously and authentically live, work and parents on their own terms. She is a repeat guest and a TEDx speaker, the author of Dying to Be a Good Mother and she hosts the highly loved podcast, Emotionally Uncomfortable. Which has over 9 million downloads and counting.
She started her career as a social worker, helping adults understand children’s behavior, but it wasn’t until 2013, when she got a stage four cancer diagnosis, that she deepened her stand for change and uncovered how cultural expectations can often sabotage us. She has been featured all over, and in this episode we go deep on her new technique of emotional time management and why, for women especially, managing our energy is more important than managing our time. She gives a simple ten minute habit to relate to this. We talk about living from our to be list instead of our to do list. A journal prompt that you can use to help you with this process, connecting to our feelings and helping integrate them. How to act as if instead of faking it till you make it. How to uncover the things that give you energy and make them regular routines. Why the words self-care and balance are triggering words for her and what she suggests instead, learning to ask the internal question if I deeply trusted myself in relation to any situation or anything that you’re facing and so much more. She’s such a fun conversation. I think you will learn a lot in this interview. So let’s join Heather. Heather. Welcome. Thanks for being here.
Heather: Hi, Katie. I’m so excited to have this conversation again with you, so thank you.
Katie: Yeah, welcome back. I’m excited to get to chat again and I know from researching your bio for this episode, it sounds like even though you are very extroverted on stage and are often speaking and in the public eye, like me, you are also at heart a little bit introverted and prefer the quiet. I think a lot of women can relate to that. But how do you manage that with having to be public facing and having to exhibit so much energy and still also being more naturally introverted?
Heather: I actually find the older I get to, the more introverted I get. And people I’ve had to one, kind of educate people on my personality. So when people are like, oh, do you want to have coffee? Do you want to do this, do you want to do that? I’m just like, oh, I’m not that type of person. So, one, it’s really knowing yourself and kind of communicating that to other people. Two, it is all about managing the energy, not the time and just giving yourself permission, like how you want to feel. I think it’s really important to know that we don’t have to be everything to everyone all the time. And if something is life giving, take that as what I call a breadcrumb and run with it. So for me, I love to be by myself, I love to be with my family, I love all those things. But as I’m out there doing the things or on stage, I also find that I get a lot of energy from these big intellectual conversations. So when I’m talking to somebody, it sucks the life out of me. If they’re like, how’s the weather? We can’t be surface level, I’m like, let’s dig deep, what is your soul craving? So I either attract people to me like that or they’re like, this woman goes too deep, she’s going to be vulnerable. I don’t want to be her friend.
Katie: I love that question, though. What is your soul craving? And like you, I found I have gotten more introverted the older I get also, and that my happy place now is in my garden or home with my kids and very rarely is something exciting enough or that’s going to take me away from that. And that’s my bar. Someone also gave me the advice once, when someone asks you to commit to something, imagine it’s like happening today or tomorrow, not like three months in the future. Because I feel like future me is like, oh, that’s far away, I can do that. And I’ve gotten better boundaries when I think of it in the immediate sense. But you mentioned the term about emotion or energy management and I think this is a really big concept for women and I know that you are doing a lot of work around this area currently. So I’m excited to delve deep on this with you today. And you talk about something called the ten-minute habit. Can you explain what that is and how that relates?
Heather: So when my book came out in I don’t even know how long ago now it was 2021. Dying to be a Good Mother. So I talked about previously my cancer journey, all the things. And people can learn more about that in the book. And my podcast. Emotionally uncomfortable. But as I was teaching this concept to women of like, how do you want to feel? Right? So Energetic. Time management is managing your energy, right? Our mental energy. Physical, emotional, spiritual. Like managing all the energy. Life is energy, not our time. So one that concept in itself is like, mind blowing to some people because we live on autopilot. We’re like living from our to do list. We’re not living from our to be list.
And I tell a story in my book. And oftentimes when I’m talking about how I was into personal development for nine years, Started with Conscious Parenting. Then it was business. Then it was like, how do you want to feel? Fulfillment, happiness, all the things. And when I got sick, I was like, okay, I don’t want to feel this way. I don’t want to feel this way. So how can I? Right? How can I feel the way that I want to feel? So fast forward. I’m like reverse engineering how I want to feel. I don’t want to feel sick, depleted, exhausted, overwhelmed. How do I want to feel? Alive, energized. Okay, Great. What are some things that I can do that are towards the energy of feeling that way.
And I started using this journal prompt, and I tell people to use it all the time, and we’ll get to the ten minute habit portion, but this journal prompt that I’ve been using forever and ever and ever is wouldn’t it be nice if I tell people all the time? Write it down. Put a five minute timer on your phone. Wouldn’t it be nice if and just give yourself permission to let it out of what is truly in there that wants to come out? Wouldn’t it be nice if someone could bring me a glass of water right now to something as big as wouldn’t it be nice if I could take a Friday off? Wouldn’t it be nice if we could do this? Wouldn’t it be nice? Everything that you write down. I’m not asking your dreams. I’m not asking your goals. I’m not asking all those things. I’m asking you feelings, right? Like what’s inside of you that wants to come out. Everything There. Those are the breadcrumbs. Those are the clues. You have to pay attention.
What we typically do as women is abandon all those needs and desires. We’re like? I don’t have time for that. Right. So we’re like, boom. Don’t have time. Like, no, let’s take that. Let’s take those desires. Now, what are the feelings? Danielle Laporte says, it’s not the thing, it’s the feeling we’re after. Why do we want the bigger house? Why do we want more money? What is the feeling that we’re after? So you’re going to go to your desire list after wouldn’t it be nice if and you’re going to start putting the feelings next to it? Abundant, free, energized, healthy, light. No one’s ever going to say overwhelmed, debt, fatigued. Like, they’re writing how they want to feel. So now that you have your feeling when I go back ten years ago in my own life, I was like, I don’t want to feel sick. I don’t want to feel depleted. I don’t want to feel lack. Okay, what is this? Aliveness. What would an alive person do today? What would an energized person do?
So I started putting on that act as if not fake it till you make it. I don’t believe in it. It was like, act as if that version of you what would that energized version of you do? Well, she would probably just get out of bed and take a shower if that’s all she had energy for, she’s going to do that. She’s going to push herself a little bit.
And so when I had nothing, I started implementing this strategy. Now that I have more and abundance and more than enough in all areas of my life, I still use this same concept. It gets me to my next level. Now, the ten minute habit portion of this was when my clients are like, I can’t do that, I can’t do that. And I’m like, okay, I just want you to commit to ten minutes. And this goes back. And it was inspired by James Clear, right? Atomic Habits. Love the science behind habits. I am not a science minded person, but I love science people. They’re like my best friends. I’m like, I trust you.
He talks about breaking everything down into two minutes, right? His two minute rule, you want to go to the gym, put your shoes on. Day one, check you’re done. You have your shoes on. Day two, get shoes on, get in the car. So you’re breaking things down into two minutes. Well, I’m like, how can I take the science behind habit formation and this soul based energy management for women who have been taught and conditioned to abandon themselves? So I’m like, breaking it into ten minutes. If you get to the point on your wouldn’t it be nice list, and you get to this, like, alive word, energized, abundant, and you discover that reading for ten minutes gives you energy or going for a ten minute walk, just commit to ten minutes and then check it off for the day. Consistency. What you’re actually doing is transitioning from one identity to the other, and then you get your life back. Then you can be more present. Then you’re like, this is what I’m actually after. And it’s been a game changer for my clients and myself.
Katie: I love that concept of operating from a to-be list instead of a to-do list. I think that alone is a big paradigm shift for a lot of people and probably a struggle, especially for a lot of moms, to break away from just the to do list because that seems like a constantly growing list in our lives.
And I’ve talked about this a little bit on this podcast before, but just the idea that we do, as moms, have so much that we handle and that we do on a daily basis. But what I discovered, and it sounds like it lines up with what you’re talking about, is that it wasn’t actually getting the things done that was the exhausting part. It was the constant mental open loops of knowing I had to get all that stuff done.
So for me, I discovered certain structures helped a lot with taking the mental load off. But I love that you’re addressing the energy side and how do you actually curate your energy? How do you cultivate more energy and how do you even learn to listen to that? It seems like for women, maybe that process of just discovering how to listen to it and figuring out what gives me energy is a big first step.
Heather: Yes. And another kind of tip is, my North Star is how do I want to feel? So it’s not about like there’s levels to this, right? And then it’s just like practice with anything else in your life. You are constantly practicing and course correcting and you’re going to get to this new level. New level. New level. And when I started, it was physically putting the basics on my calendar and taking my phone and having a timer every hour. How do you want to feel? How do you want to feel? Like your mindfulness breaks or whatever. Now it’s a go to. My brain is conditioned to go. Okay, I have this long to do list. I have this mental load to carry. How do I want to feel while I’m doing it?
Maybe I can’t do all the things I want to do, but how can I send these emails in alignment with how I want to feel? They have to get done. I’m feeling a little overwhelmed, so maybe I will go for that quick ten minute power walk. Maybe I’m going to put some music on that’s going to lift me up. Maybe I’m going to feel my feelings, which is overwhelm, and I’m going to get it done, but I’m going to remember this feeling and say, this is not sustainable and I have to take Friday off or I have to book that massage, or I have to do something. So you start getting into this proactive mindset instead of the reactive mindset. And I don’t know about you, Katie, but I’ve noticed since as my business grows, my company grows, right? The team’s getting bigger, the kids are getting older, the issues are getting more complex. I have to think of my life, whether it’s parenting or work or my health. Like, I’m an athlete. I never identified as an athlete previously, but it’s like if you’re not committing to one degree better, right, like, just slow and steady, the pressure is going to build up. And so the number one thing for me was accepting that life is a journey. There is this constant evolution and the work is never done. But I had to let go of that addictive mindset of that all or nothing, right? The ambition of all or nothing. I’m like, if I’m actually just sustainable ten minutes at a time, and I’m like a slow and steady climb, people are like, oh my gosh, how do you do it all? And I’m like, I’ve actually slowed way down, but I’m doing things better. More meticulous, more mindful, more intentional. And it looks like the output is so much more because it’s quality over quantity and the results are better. So that’s a really difficult mindset when you’re used to someone who has, like, who’s a go getter.
Katie: I love that mental shift and I love that you brought up the term thinking like an athlete, because this has been an evolution for me as well. I’m now actually coaching high school pole vaulting and also training for a Heptathlon myself. But my parents even kind of pushed us toward the academic and not the athletic side. And I got told, like, you’re not an athlete, but that mindset. Even if you’re not out doing competitive athletic events, I feel like the mindset is so important and it helps shift probably toward a lot of the things that are going to nourish your energy. Because instead of, like, for instance, dieting, you would be thinking of fueling your body and how do I get enough nutrition? And instead of the to do list, you might remember like, oh, sleep is important. It helps you actually in a positive. I feel like mindset focus on the things that are going to help build your energy over time.
Heather: It’s been fascinating the last few years. It was actually nutrition and movement, fitness, whatever you want to call it, where I was looking at all the areas of my life, I’m like, okay, parenting, solid, work, solid. Like, I’m gaining momentum in all these areas. Marriage, solid. Health, good. Nutrition, no confidence there. Movement, no, like, muscle, no confidence there. So I invested in those areas. And yeah, when you’re not ”good” at something, but you’re good in all other areas, I’m like, oh, wow, there’s no arriving. Like, you have to eat every day, there’s no arriving. This is something you’re constantly chipping away at. So that was a huge AHA moment. And then I started using that in business and parenting and all the things I’m like, this is it. This is becoming the type of person right. That identity shift of I don’t want to do this, but I’m going to do this because I want the feeling on the other side. And there was something else I was going to say and I totally just forgot what it was. It’ll come back to me. You’ll say something, it’ll inspire me again.
Katie: Well. And I think the other valuable piece of this that I’ve learned from, I’ve done nutrition work with some elite athletes. And what I’ve learned most from them is when we look at athletes from the outside, we think of all the work they’re putting in and all the effort and all the training, but they actually value recovery, which is not rest, but recovery just as much as the inputs they’re putting in. And they know you’re actually building muscle when you’re recovering, not when you’re working out. And if you don’t recover enough, you’re going to not see the results that you want to see. And that was a really valuable metaphor for me, even when it came to mental load or emotional load. It’s like, it’s not just the effort. It’s also what we’re doing to balance that with recovery and rebuilding and supporting ourselves, which I think is a better insight than just how we often hear about self-care and think of bubble baths or wine nights. But when you think of it as recovery and you’re looking at a more holistic view, I feel like it takes on more meaning. And also you have a lot more strategies to really improve that energy as well.
Heather: Yeah, self-care and balance, two triggering words for me because of the mainstream conversations around them, right? The highly marketed, whole culture around it. And I’m like, Ladies, just think for yourselves. Does this feel good? Because to be honest, sometimes a bubble bath is actually sabotage. I actually can see it as sabotage. It’s fascinating when you can learn to master your own resistance. Am I doing this because I’m resisting it, or am I doing this? Am I not doing this because I’m resisting it? Or am I doing it because it’s not aligned? And every time I’m working with somebody, I ask her at the end, what did you learn from this process? And she’s like, I thought I came in because I was overwhelmed and I needed, “balance”. And on the other side, I developed deep self trust because I tell people all the time, what is going to work for you is not going to work for me in any area of your life and how you want to feel.
If you say you want to feel energized, you have to realize that sometimes things that give one person energy will drain and suck the life out of the other person. And so when you’re starting to look through this lens of, how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel? How do I want to feel, you realize it’s not just the physical thing outside of you. That’s like, I’m going to put this thing on my to do list, right? Because then I see people going, well, I’m doing the workouts, I’m going for the walks, I’m eating the food, I’m drinking the water. And I’m like, but there’s other aspects of yourself you’re abandoning and you’re not listening to. There’s some really emotionally uncomfortable conversations you need to have. There’s some risks you need to take. There’s some things you need to let go of. There’s some projects you need to say yes to. And before you do that, I often find the energy actually gets lower to get your attention, where you’re kind of going in this little hibernation mode. And when you’re listening, you’re like, how do I want to feel? When you ask yourself, if I gave myself permission and I deeply trusted myself, what action would I take right now? And you have to listen deeply and trust that and the uncertainty when you start taking the action.
Katie: I agree with you completely on the self-care and balance being somewhat triggering words, just because I think they’re often misunderstood or there’s too broad of a definition, and too many things are swept under that category. And I think for moms especially, those things can also feel selfish or we have a lot of programming that makes those things in the context that they’re often talked about, hard to even do, to the point that they’re not even recovery or they’re not relaxing when you actually do them. They feel like another to do list item. I even joked when I was probably in my most stressed, maybe eight years ago, that I would put, like, relax on my to do list. And to me, that was, in hindsight, a very funny example of how that definition plays out for a lot of people in society.
Heather: So I want to use that as, like, a hardcore example because people will say, I’m like, how do you want to feel? Right? They write down their wouldn’t it be nice list, and they’re noticing that it will say relaxed, focused, present. And they think, right, I’m using think as in their brain. They think that relaxation or I want to feel relaxed equals white space on their calendar or doing nothing or getting rid of the to do list.
I always use the analogy, and I have literally, like, five cups that you can’t see here, and I don’t have it with me today, but I have a Mason Jar. I’m like, whatever. Imagine your Mason jar is you, and it is full of well, let’s pretend it’s full of a black substance, like black coffee, and that represents what is already inside of you. So it might be fatigue, overwhelm, guilt, shame, whatever. And you take another cup, and the other cup is what you want to put into it. You want to put relaxation into it. So what’s going to happen is, one, you need to get super crystal clear on what relaxation actually is for your body and your brain and your soul. Because to be honest, maybe going for a quick run might be relaxing for you. Maybe literally taking a nap by the pool or taking a nap or reading a book might be relaxing. It may be the opposite. You really need to know yourself.
But let’s pretend we want to start putting relaxation into ourselves, right? So relaxation equals water, clear substance, this big Mason jar, what’s inside of you? Overwhelmed, fatigue, whatever it is going to take an excessive amount of water, right? The relaxation over and over again, the ten minute habits and the consistency poured into you. When I started this process, my guilt actually got worse. My fatigue actually got bigger, my overwhelm actually got bigger. And I thought, oh, this is a sign to stop. What I didn’t realize was I had to push through, not hustle through, not burn out. Challenge the edge and push through. So that’s also why the ten minute habit is so, so important. Because if you’re like, to me, relaxation equals, I don’t know, pick one thing that feels relaxing to you. I’m going to say a walk. Okay. But it might be a run. It may be reading a book, I don’t know. You’re going for that walk, but as you’re walking you’re like, this is not relaxing. I’m actually more tired. Why is my body getting more tired? Why is my guilt getting bigger? It’s because it’s like a little detox. It’s an emotional detox. It’s coming up and out, up and out. And as you keep pouring into yourself, eventually you’re like, I can feel the relaxation. Of course, from a science perspective, your body regulating nervous system, all of that, but from an action perspective and a soul desire perspective, it’s going to take time and consistency.
Katie: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. And I’ve talked on the physical side of health, how individualized that is, and how every expert can give us great insight and knowledge. But at the end of the day, we have to each figure out our own framework because we are all so different. And it seems like in this case, too, there’s no prescriptive. Just going for a walk is the answer. Taking a bubble bath is an answer. It’s figuring out actually for you by listening to that small voice over time, what actually are your things. And so for me, I can think of things like sunshine, weightlifting, walks are great, reading books, but that might be entirely different for someone else listening.
Heather: And I also find, too, once you get to a point where I talk about this in my book and on my TEDx Talk, where there’s like this little sustainable ambition theory. So at the bottom there’s survival and then there’s momentum and then thrival, and then abundance. And I find for a lot of people, they’re like, okay, Heather, I’m not living in a state of survival. Like I’m good. I have all those things down pat. Then you have to dig deeper, and you’re like, okay, what is it now that I want and desire? What’s the next level? What’s the state of momentum that equals abundance or relaxation or energy? Right? Like, when you’re actually doing good in your life, you don’t stop. You dig a little bit deeper of like, what’s the next level? And you’re building your identity on top of each other. And that’s where it gets really, really good, because I can do those things, but I’m like, there’s something else I’m craving.
One, I need to give myself permission to dig in, because I think a lot of women don’t do that, and then they’re at capacity. So we have to realize, why are we at capacity? Why are we like, oh, there’s never enough. Give yourself ten minutes to dig a little bit deeper of like, if I could, what would I do? And sometimes I don’t know about you, Katie, but as you’re building a company, the really emotionally uncomfortable conversations and decisions and risks you need to take when you even may have a mentor that’s saying to you, if you want to be successful, you have to do XYZ. And you’re like, something feels off that is not aligned. I have taken some big risks in the last few years, and it has been mind blowing to me where I’m like, if I deeply trusted myself, how would I run my company if I deeply trusted myself, how would I parent my children, if I deeply trusted myself? And sometimes those answers go against professional opinion, and I act on it just to test it a little bit, and it usually works out to be in my favor, in my child’s favor, in the company’s favor. And it’s been mind blowing to me to literally act, how do you want to feel? How do you want to feel? And just keep leaning in.
Katie: I love that as a metric for helping refocus, and you touched on something else that I think is really important, kind of that idea of, like, boundaries and being willing to have the hard conversations. If those are because that feels like a massive open loop, or it can be, that can take a lot of mental energy. And I would guess when people start going through this process and asking those questions, it often might put them face to face with a hard conversation they’ve been avoiding. So any advice for that? Because I think speaking at least for myself, I know in the past I’ve had trouble wanting to have those hard conversations and then realizing that was a problem. I think I even overworked on that so much that I went the other way and had too many hard conversations in a row. But any advice around hard conversations and how to navigate those?
Heather: I’m laughing because that’s so me where I’m like, okay, I need to charge forward. And then you just swing to the other side of the pendulum. I think that’s the all or nothing as well, too, right? So if I’m really challenged with something and this could be a hard conversation, it could be a boundary that you need to implement. Sometimes I rehearse it. Like, I will literally go for a walk and I’m sending myself a voice memo and I’m trying to script it out. I often will tell myself, too, like, if I was giving this advice to a friend or a client or somebody else, what would I tell them to do or say? And I will write it out. Sometimes I’ll rehearse it a little bit.
But here’s the thing. I’m going to take a little bigger step back because everyone always wants to know scripts. They want to know the easy way, they want to know the tips, all of that stuff. I mean, boundaries are trendy right now, so you could probably Google it or get a book on it or something. There’s lots of scripts out there. Here’s my bigger perspective on boundaries in general, when you are living out of alignment with how you want to feel, right? So that seems like a very selfish statement. Like, how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel?
Okay, I’m somebody who lives for impact. I show up every day to serve other people. People will ask me all the time, how do you take care of yourself? Most of the time I’m not even thinking about myself. I’m doing these things out of a necessity to serve everyone else. So whether it’s my children, my clients, bigger impact. The funny part is when you are I’m going to call it people pleasing, or when you are not holding a boundary, when you are not having that emotionally uncomfortable conversation, you are doing that other person a huge disservice. I’m sure you’ve been in a relationship with someone or in an interaction when you know they said yes to something, when they really meant no, they are undercharging. They are under serving. I’ll have it to you on Monday. They keep pushing you off. It’s actually draining to you. Like you can feel it, right? They’re not living in integrity. Like, I can feel it. I always say, I don’t enjoy being in relationship with raging people pleasers. Because I can smell it a mile away and it’s taking from me. It’s taking time from me. It’s taking energy from me.
So when you are like, oh crap, I need to have this uncomfortable conversation, and I know it’s going to emotionally trigger that other person, go beyond the discomfort and think about their future. Think about the opportunity of having that conversation. Yes, you may be letting them go. Yes, you may be saying, I no longer need your service. Or let’s pivot. It’s going to make them uncomfortable. But think about their future. Maybe you’re pushing them out of the nest. Maybe something next level is happening. I really had to step up my game here now that my kids are getting older. I have three boys, they’re 18, 13 and 10. And now that we’re headed into teenage world, oh, boy, emotionally uncomfortable conversations happen all the time. And if I make it about me or if I make it like, oh, I’m going to upset him, oh, I’m going to do this, it actually makes the situation so much worse. And so it’s always a win-win when you’re saying, how do I want to feel? And you begin to realign that energy towards that feeling because you’re giving that other person the exact same permission to do that.
Katie: Yeah, I think what you just said is huge as a mom. And I’ve realized this lesson over and over is we can say these things all we want, but they pay so much attention to what we model and we don’t give them the permission to do it unless we’re also willing to do it. Which brings the question for all the parents listening, what are some of the ways we can help our kids learn these things? I think of this often, how can we help our kids have a shorter learning curve on these things than we did? How can we help them build frameworks for understanding the energy management side early on and how are you doing that with your boys?
Heather: So it’s funny because my children, especially the oldest, and I’m using air quotes, I’m Heather Chauvin. So he’s in the phase of like, let’s do the opposite of what mom teaches and all of that. Every time I’ve read a book, the through line of anything is role modeling. Like that’s it the through line depending on the child’s personality. I mean, I have to be practicing what I’m preaching. I have to show up. I have to become the adult that I most desire my children to be. And I also have to see and understand that they have feelings too. They have resistance, they have overwhelm, they have fear, they have all things.
And guess what? I’m going to say this might be profound to people. My children are not me. My children are other souls, other humans having their own experience and everything that comes out of their mouth, every behavior is not always a reflection of me. And I think parenting so much like we’re so enmeshed inside of our relationship with our children that we realize just because I believe something or I’m practicing something doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to. So if I’m showing up and I am proud of the person that I am becoming, that is good enough.
And so I’m raising boys in a world that like, okay, everyone in my house. I also live with my mother, and that’s a whole other podcast topic or my mother lives with us, but there’s a lot of boys around me, men around me, and I am a “strong woman”. People would label me as a strong woman, right? I’m like, I’m going to stand in my power. I’m going to own it. You are not going to dictate who I become just because you think that we’re all individuals and we all have a space here. In the last little bit, I have had conversations with friends and they have said to me over and over again, well, he’s triggered by you because you’re such a strong woman. And I said, I am not going to shrink myself because my child is intimidated by me. I will have a beautiful, connected conversation, but this is okay. It is okay to be who I am in my family, in my space. And if I want my children to grow up and be them and figure out who they are, I don’t want them to shrink any part of themselves, even if it makes me emotionally uncomfortable. But we can learn to respect each other. So I just think it’s really important to role model who we want to be and how we want to feel for our kids. And if we’re not, I mean, they’re going to learn it either way. They’re going to learn the contrast and the lessons. I think we are in a generation of undoing the work that our parents didn’t do. But we have to realize there’s always going to be something that we’re healing, even if our parents are “perfect”.
Katie: That’s good perspective, and I love what you said. I think just simply viewing our kids as their own infinite, autonomous beings, separate of us, is such a big step for parenting and gets us a lot of the way there, because then we can detach all those layers of projecting onto them or feeling like what they do is a reflection of us, which I think is an issue for a lot of parents. And I love that approach you’re having with them, and it’ll be fun to see how that works for them and what they do in their lives.
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And I’m in the same boat with you. I have a 17-year-old, and we’re just entering those stages as well. Some words have come up a couple of times, and I’d love to go deeper on the topics of self-trust and alignment, which I think maybe are also kind of sticking points for a lot of people.
Heather: So, for me in general and self-trust, I didn’t know that that was actually what I needed. I don’t know about you, but whether it is learning to grow your business, whether it’s learning to improve your health, whether it’s learning to feel more connected in a relationship, at the end of the day, this question of how do I want to feel? And learning to reverse engineer and manage your energy and not your time. I’m asking you a question of how do you not how you think I, right? How do you and we’ve never been taught this. We go through our whole lives pleasing other people and showing up for other people and doing everything based on how other people perceive us. And how often do you ask yourself, what do I want? What works for me? And sometimes I find when I ask people that at the beginning, they don’t know the answer. And so I’m like, that’s okay, right, we’re just unlearning.
But deep self-trust and self-trust in general is scary, right? It’s emotionally uncomfortable. That’s why I changed my podcast. My podcast actually used to be called Mom Is in Control, and I changed it to Emotionally Uncomfortable because I don’t believe in hard things. I just don’t. I believe that we take these tiny actions every single day. We make choices every single day, and most of them are not hard. I think as a culture, as humans, we’re addicted to hard. So I had to retrain my brain that this isn’t hard. It’s just emotionally uncomfortable. It’s not hard to send the email. It’s not hard to show your face on social media. It’s not hard to communicate your needs to that other person or to hold space when somebody’s grieving or to feel your own grief. It’s emotional. It’s emotionally uncomfortable. So when you begin to feel your actual feelings, this is where we get to learn to deeply trust ourselves.
But when we are living in our heads and we’re not in our bodies, when we’re like, oh, wow, there’s fear. Okay, fear. Why are you here? Fear, what do you need from me to feel safe to leave my body? We start to develop that deep trust with ourselves, and then we can live from that place instead of living from fear or living from other people’s expectations. And to me, and what I have found is that is where alignment is. Because when a request comes in of me or I’m given an opportunity and I have all these things on my to do list, when I’m really looking at that list and I’m like what is aligned and what is not aligned, I could probably cut it in half. Because most of those things are either busy work or things that I’m doing for other people to please them in some aspect that is not in alignment with my desires and my goals. So it feels like a minimalist approach. And I have found that the more aligned I become, the more I say, no, thank you, or the more I’m like, that doesn’t work for me right now. I don’t have the capacity for that. And that’s how confidence is born, just with those little ten minutes at a time.
Katie: Yeah. I think that process, just like nutrition, is a constant journey for a lot of people. I know it is for me. And I’ve said before, I’m kind of a recovering people pleaser and a recovering perfectionist. But I feel like that’s an unraveling, that process of realizing even how many things we do just because they’re programmed in or because we’re supposed to or because of the expectations of other people. And that often is a really hard journey, it seems like. And I agree with your phrasing, that not everything has to be hard, but it can take a while to unlearn that programming of doing for other people, especially when it comes to our families and our kids, because that feels so ingrained, I think, for a lot of people.
Heather: Yes. And I also want to give a huge shout out to contrast, what is not serving us and the beauty and the gift in that. Because I think as someone who, especially in this personal development space, perfection is such an addictive coping strategy. Right? And then when you start to unlearn that, you’ll hear things from people, like, I’m doing everything right. Why did this happen? Well, life is uncertain. Everything, nothing is guaranteed. Like, everything is temporary. And the more you accept that, you get to play with this.
Like, yes, I want to feel good. I want to feel healthy, so I’m going to make healthy choices. But when something happens and all of a sudden I’m in a season of overwhelm or season of burnout, I haven’t failed. I’m just, sit there and feel it and go, not this. Like, this is not serving me. I cannot stay here that long. But understand, you were created for strength. You were created to do magical things. And it’s okay if you’re looking at your life and going, oh, my gosh, how did I get here? And you’re starting to feel shame, and you’re starting to feel regret, and you’re starting to feel that, like, I can’t ask for help because then it’s weakness or I don’t know how to get out of this. Contrast is a beautiful thing. I see it as a symptom. So when I’m like, what isn’t working in my life? Like, I even write that down, like, what isn’t working? Or not this. I will write out a not this list, and I will physically write out the things that are causing pressure or contrast, and then I can learn to realign those things. But we have to sit with the duality of, like, it’s not always going to be rainbows and kitty cats, but when our brain is focused on how can I and how do I want to feel? We’re putting more energy towards that direction. Rather than just living in default of like, life sucks. Let’s just chip away at the to do list, and then one day it’s done.
Katie: And just to highlight, it seems like you’re a fan of actually physically writing these things out too, which I’m guessing there’s something in the process of that that’s more helpful than just thinking about this or, like, having it at a more high level. And probably a lot of people have heard the idea that journaling can be really helpful. I like your approach because it gives a direction with the journaling rather than just sitting down and kind of like, Dear Diary, here’s what happened today. But, like, actually a focus that by reinforcing, like, I did this for a year with Gratitude Journaling. And I noticed after doing that, I tend to just naturally find things to be grateful for much more easily than I did before I started doing that. Are there any other prompts like that or tips that you have for women in especially that process of reconnecting with themselves?
Heather: Yeah, I think even the word journaling can be overwhelming for people. I’m like, Just write it down. I have books all over the place. I’m not super organized all the time with it. I write it down. I’m like, which book did I write that in? It’s okay. But I’m like, just what are you struggling with? What’s the challenge? What clarity do you want to write? Like, write that question at the top, and then five minute timer don’t stop. I love conscious free writing. If you write, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know for five minutes or four minutes and 30 seconds. In the last 30 seconds, it’s like, well, maybe I do know. Maybe this is what I actually want. Right?
Again, one, I forget a lot of things. People can say it’s hormonal. They can say it’s overwhelmed. It could be, I don’t know, my age, my brain. Who the heck knows? When I write it down, it’s like, it’s there. I can go back to it again and again and again. And it’s so fascinating because we can stay stuck in our head. We’re overthinkers, right? And we’re just like, that doesn’t matter. But you’ll watch the trends. I love also seeing the patterns of I keep writing this thing down over and over and over again. Huh. Maybe if I actually do something about it, my life will change. And then you’re like, wow, three years ago, I wrote down, wouldn’t it be nice if…. and I keep at, like, keep putting that down. Maybe that’s like a huge thing, a huge missing piece. So it’s like, you have to start becoming the detective, right, the problem solver of your own life. And so writing to me is really like detective work and problem solving. And you find so much magic in there. Everyone’s looking for the secret. It’s inside of you. You just got to let it out.
Katie: And it seems like often the answer is maybe subtractive rather than additive in a culture that constantly just gives us more things to add to the to do list. Like you mentioned, if you actually look at yours, half of the stuff could probably go away. And I’ve seen this play out on the physical side with nutrition as well. Often it’s simpler than we think it is, and we are adding all these things that overcomplicate. It’s thinking that adding is the answer. And it sounds like in your process, often you might find this there’s simply letting go of a lot of things you don’t need to do.
Heather: Yes. And I’m actually finding that right now in most areas of my life where I’m like, how can I make this simpler? And when, again, someone’s like you should do this because everyone loves to tell you how you should live your life or what foods you should put in your mouth, or how you should move your own body. And when that request comes in, like, projected onto me, if I’m about to grab onto it, like, hook onto it, I usually ask myself first, am I doing this because they told me to, or am I doing this because it’s solving a problem and it’s more aligned? I may test it a little bit, but I just say, no, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you. And so, again, if it’s not putting energy in the direction of how you want to feel, most likely you have to let it go.
Katie: Yeah. And the world will not end by saying no, thank you to things, even though it can feel like it. When you’re first learning that process. I’ve also learned to pay attention to your point. Anytime I’m using the word should, even internally, it’s often an insight that doesn’t come from me. That’s an external thing that I’m internalizing. And so even in my speech, I try not to say that word very much, and I try to pay attention to anytime it comes up in my brain, because often it’s a great source of insight.
Heather: Yes. And I have found now where I’m at in this process of the ten minute habit and reverse engineering how I want to feel. Most of the work is internal, like before. Yes. I’m still writing things down. It was external of, like, how do I want to feel? And I had to put those things on the calendar, and I’m still doing that. But it’s also the emotional regulation of learning to have boundaries with certain emotions. I’ll be having a day, and I’m like, I’m in a shame spiral or like, gosh, guilt is just consuming my whole body right now. Like, what’s going on? I’m like, all right, ride the wave. Feel it out, right? It’s like you’re in the ocean. You’re in the wave. You got to surrender to it a little bit. I’m like, all right, tomorrow. I’m not doing this. Guilt, shame. You’re not welcome here. I still feel you and see you, but I’m driving the ship today. So it’s really the internal game of asking yourself, like, what am I giving energy to? And what am I not giving energy to? And those little subtle shifts can make such an impact.
Katie: And I know you have more resources to help people build on this process. Can you talk about where people can find those and how they can keep going with this process?
Heather: Yes. So the energetic, the ten minute habit challenge. I show you, like five steps. There’s like simple audios you can listen to in a beautiful workbook, so you can get to these ten minute habits of like, what should I actually physically be doing based on how I want to feel? So if you go to HeatherChauvin.com/ETM for Energetic Time Management ETM, you can check it out there and then find me emotionally uncomfortable. All the things I will brainwash you to let you know that you can become the best version of you ten minutes at a time.
Katie: And I will put those links for you guys listening. Everything will be in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm, including the links to your site, your book, your Ted Talk, etc. So those will all be there. A couple of questions I love to ask toward the end of interviews. The first being if there is a book or number of books that have really profoundly impacted you personally and if so, what they are and why.
Heather: I always go back to Robin Sharma’s, the Leader who had no title. I have no idea why, but it was one of the first books I read when I was getting into personal development. And I think it was because it was a fable about a man who had cultural insignificance but made such an impact in people’s lives that we don’t need to write books and be on stages and be out there. It’s really how we lead in our everyday lives that impact and influence other people.
Katie: I love it. I will link to that as well. And lastly, any parting advice for the listeners that could be related to the topics we’ve covered or entirely unrelated.
Heather: When I started my journey, my huge pain point and trigger was parenting. And then it was my health and then it was business and it was all the things and I read all the books and did all the things and I realized at the end of the day the secret and what I was missing was just feeling alive. So I tell people, the better you feel, the more you can give to others. It’s way easier than we give ourselves credit for. It is so emotionally uncomfortable and scary because you’re going against cultural norms, but that’s what we’re looking for. So the better you feel, that is when what you desire comes to you.
Katie: Perfect place to wrap up for today. Thank you so much for the time. It’s always such a fun conversation with you and I’m so grateful you took the time to be here.
Heather: Thank you, Katie.
Katie: And thanks as always to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy especially and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of The Wellness Mama Podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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