625: Tallene Hacatoryan on PCOS: Addressing the Root Cause & Resolving Symptoms

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie, from wellnessmama.com. And this episode is all about PCOS. And I’m here with a new friend, Tallene, who is a registered dietician, who specializes in PCOS and especially PCOS-related weight loss. She was diagnosed with PCOS when she was 18. And after a lot of research and experience, she reversed her symptoms, and now helps other women do the same thing. She and her husband who is a PCOS-focused personal trainer, focus on helping women with PCOS learn how to thrive symptom free. They’ve also developed an app called The Cysterhood, which is spelt, C-Y-S-T-E-R-H-O-O-D, which is the largest community of PCOS women, learning how to lose weight and manage PCOS together.
And in this episode, we go deep on the root causes and resolving symptoms of PCOS, including the diagnostic criteria. The things that often accompany PCOS like insulin resistance and blood sugar issues. The factors that are contributing to the rise in people getting PCOS more often. Why it’s actually a somewhat protective mechanism, and why it’s gotten out of control. How endocrine disruptors contribute to the problem. The way insulin resistance comes into play. We talk about food, supplements, stress hormones, light, sleep, tips for reducing inflammation, and so much more. Definitely, if you have PCOS, there is a wealth of knowledge in this episode that I hope will really benefit you. And let’s jump in. Tallene, welcome, and thanks for being here.
Tallene: Thanks so much for having me.
Katie: I am excited to chat with you today because you are an expert in all things PCOS. And this is something I hear from a lot of readers and listeners with questions about, and that’s not something I have a lot of personal experience with. And so I’m really excited to learn from you on this today. And I have on my show notes, before we jump in, that you also like to make up words to songs, that you even convince your husband that you know the lyrics to them. And I have to hear about this because I have so many songs that I think I know the lyrics to, and then I see them written down and I’m like, oh, that’s what they actually say.
Tallene: I mean, I’ve done this for the longest time, and it’s driven my sister insane. And just, like, I want to sing, I want to sing along and have fun. And then after I got married, I did that, you know. And then my husband thought I knew all the words everything until my sister came in and was like, “It’s all a lie. She doesn’t know what she’s saying. They’re wrong. And she is just, like, blabbering to the music.”
Katie: That’s awesome. I love it. Well, at least you’re singing and having fun. I think there’s something to be said, even from the health side, of play, and more spontaneity, and joy in life.
Tallene: That’s what I’m saying. That’s exactly what I’m thinking when I’m singing along.
Katie: Well, the reason I’m excited to chat with you today is that you are, as I said, an expert in all things PCOS. And I know from reading your bio, that this also stems from personal experience with it. So to start off, can you maybe give us a little bit of your background and your personal experience with PCOS?
Tallene: Sure. I was diagnosed when I was 18. And I had a ruptured ovarian cyst that sent me to the hospital. It was super painful. And the first thing they said, you know, was, “You have PCOS,” which I was lucky to get diagnosed so quickly. And then they said, “You need to take birth control.” And I really didn’t understand, like, what was going on? How did this happen? I thought I was eating healthy. You know, where is this all coming from? None of my questions were answered. And I was just, like, flung into the world, given birth control, with no other option. And so after a while, I was really interested in nutrition and health, and I decided to get off of birth control just to see what would happen so I could regulate it naturally. And I didn’t really have all the tools at the time, it was like the beginning of college. So I went off birth control and my symptoms came back with a vengeance, worse than ever before. Like, no period for, like, a year, and cystic painful acne, bloating. Just the worst. Like, all of the symptoms came back, the hair loss, the facial hair, everything.
And then I started working with naturopathic doctors who really just steered me back into the right direction. They all kept telling me, you need to change your diet. You need to try gluten and dairy free. You need to change your lifestyle and manage your stress better. And we can get into everything in this episode. But there were a lot of things that they told me to do that were really life changing. And that really sling-shotted me into learning more about PCOS.
Katie: And I feel like most people have for sure heard this term by now and maybe at least have a little bit of a passing understanding of what PCOS is. But can you kind of give us maybe a little bit more comprehensive of an explanation about what is actually happening in the body when there’s PCOS. Because I feel like probably many people have had the similar experience that you had, where they’re told that birth control is the normal treatment or the only option. So explain what’s going on in the body and why doctors recommend birth control as a treatment option.
Tallene: Typically women with PCOS, they find that they have irregular periods or they’re not ovulating. And not getting your period, not ovulating aren’t good things, as you know. And so then they say just go on birth control. And that kind of just, like, takes over your whole hormonal system. All of the rhythms are cancelled. All of the natural hormone rhythms are canceled. You take birth control, and it’s just, like, same, same, same. And then you stop during the period, and then, you know, your progesterone drops and then you get your period. And so, that’s why they give you birth control, just to take over all together. But that’s not a solution. It’s really just a bandaid. And so, women with PCOS are diagnosed if they have two out of the three symptoms, irregular period, ovarian cysts, hyperandrogenism. You know, it all creates an environment where you have higher testosterone, and then you trigger not having your period and not ovulating.
Katie: And then you had an actual cyst rupture as well, which I heard is a quite painful experience. And women can experience that as well, but they may not necessarily have that experience even if they have PCOS. Right?
Tallene: Exactly. Not everyone has ovarian cysts. And that’s where the trouble comes in. Because a lot of women are misdiagnosed or just overlooked and told that they don’t or they do have PCOS, without looking at this criteria and realizing that you need two out of the three. It’s not, if you don’t have ovarian cysts, you just don’t have PCOS. Because then we’re just going to go through a life of all kinds of other symptoms and not know what to do about it because you weren’t diagnosed with PCOS, because you didn’t have ovarian cysts. And so that happens to so many. That’s why I was so lucky to be diagnosed so quickly.
Katie: And from my understanding, PCOS can often go hand in hand with other conditions as well, because it does have these hormonal implications and sort of, like, metabolic implications as well, from my understanding. So it’s like, even if you aren’t trying to get pregnant or concerned with fertility, this is something you definitely still want to look at, because it can have ripple effects into so many other areas.
Tallene: Right. It can affect your thyroid. It can also affect your blood sugar. Eighty percent of women with PCOS have insulin resistance. And so when you have insulin resistance, it can turn into diabetes, it can turn into issues like that down the line, and then heart disease. And, you know, it can be a very negative thing down the line, if you just ignore your PCOS. Which unfortunately, many of us are told to do, as soon as we’re diagnosed. Just take birth control, pretend it’s not happening. And when you want to get pregnant, come back. And by that time, like, 15 years pass while you’re on birth control, and you haven’t done anything to improve your insulin resistance or anything. In fact, birth control makes it worse. And then it makes it even harder down the line to get a hold of it. Even though not to be negative, because you can get your PCOS under control. It’s never too late.
Katie: Yeah, it just seems like women aren’t given the full range of options or kind of, like, even an explanation or informed consent, when they’re just told that birth control is the only treatment option. And like you said, that kind of overrides your natural hormones. So you do get your cycle back. But it’s not actually technically your cycle, it’s a hormonally driven by exogenous hormone cycle, which then lets you further mask these underlying issues and sort of, like, ignore them for a longer time, rather than facing sort of, I guess, the root cause.
Tallene: Exactly. That’s what’s happening to so many women. And it’s the most common hormonal disorder. It’s the most common endocrine disorder. And if it’s the most common, shouldn’t we know, like, what we can do to manage it. Because 1 in 5, and in some countries, 1 in 10 women have PCOS. So that’s a lot of women. It’s a lot of people that need more guidance than just, lose weight and take birth control, which is often the two statements that are told as soon as you’re diagnosed.
Katie: And I want to make sure we reserve a lot of time for the solutions portion of this. But I also want to make sure we understand from the root cause and go kind of why we’re seeing this. And it seems like we’re seeing it at a, like you just said, larger rate than we used to see it. And I’ve even heard of this in really young girls who have just gotten their cycles. Like, we’re seeing it younger, we’re seeing a higher incidence of this. What do you think are some of the factors that are contributing to the rise of PCOS?
Tallene: I love this question, because it’s definitely not talked about enough. PCOS has been around for centuries. Like, it’s been around since the beginning of time. This is the woman’s protective mechanism. This is the way our body protects us so we can fight or flee stress, and danger, famine, warfare, whatever it was back then. And so what happens is, you don’t make as many eggs. You don’t have as many children. And that helps you survive whatever the horrible condition was, you know. And now, it’s exaggerated. We have so many endocrine disruptors in our environment. It’s absolutely everywhere. We don’t have control over it. We have a stressful lifestyle that’s deemed as normal. We’re driving in traffic. We’re rushing here and there. We’re always in flight or fight mode, you know. And that kind of puts your body in this PCOS state. And it’s a lot more extreme now because it’s chronic. It’s not just, like, you know, before, if there was a famine or warfare, that was a period of time, and then maybe it was over, hopefully. Now it’s, like, always every day, stress, stress, stress, chronic stress building on itself, and then creating that PCOS environment in a more exaggerated way.
And, you know, like I said, I mean, I don’t like to go into the endocrine disruptors too much because there’s so many and it gets so negative. So what we can do is try to mitigate it and remove them as best as we can. And you have your wonderful line of products that do exactly that, toothpaste and things like that, and just swap things out to make your environment less inflammatory. And not to mention that PCOS can come from insulin resistance. And so, if you had, like, diabetes in your family, diabetes gets passed down in the form of insulin resistance. So it’s a combination of genetics and environmental factors that create the perfect storm for PCOS. And now in more of an exaggerated way, especially since what we see out here with, you know, fast food, and our diets, and our lifestyles.
Katie: Yeah, I feel like on the personal care side and the endocrine disruptor side, like, we know, if we look at the data, like you said, it can get very overwhelming very quickly because of how many chemicals we’re exposed to on a daily basis that we didn’t used to be. Especially as women, so many products have endocrine disrupting chemicals in them, and kids are encountering these at younger ages. This was, like, to your point, one of my big reasons for wanting to start Wellnesse, was taking sort of an 80-20 approach of, like, if we can’t fix everything, what are the big sources of exposure that most people are still using. And I realized if we trade out things that go on our skin, our hair, and our mouth, that gets us a lot of the way there. So even if you can’t tackle everything, it’s like, wherever you can take baby steps to reduce exposure, that helps. And I also love that you brought up insulin resistance because I love that this is becoming part of the more mainstream conversation of wellness in general. And we now have things…like, right now I have a monitor on my arm that lets me monitor my blood glucose continuously…
Tallene: Levels.
Katie: Levels monitor. Yep. And I love that just being able to see my own personalized data. Because while we can read general things like oats and grapes are more likely to raise blood sugar, for instance, actually getting to see based on my own diet and what I eat, which things have a bigger impact and which things don’t. Or see how if I eat protein with a meal, I have a more stable glucose response. I feel like that availability of that data helps us personalize. But let’s talk more about the insulin resistance component of this. Because like you said, it’s connected to PCOS, but it’s by no means only related to PCOS. We’re seeing insulin resistance go up on a population-wide scale. So this is something that, like, I feel like it’s really important to talk about in the general wellness conversation, but also very, very relevant to hormonal issues and PCOS.
Tallene: Definitely. I had insulin resistance, and I thought that I was eating healthy. You know, I thought I had a normal diet. Just, like, I wasn’t eating candy and sugar, and I still had insulin resistance. And it was really surprising to me when I learned that I had insulin resistance and how it was affecting PCOS. And like you said, it’s running rampant. And it’s something that we definitely have to learn how to manage in our lifestyle and the way that we eat. I’m a registered dietitian, so I could talk about the way that we eat and insulin resistance all day.
But I also did the Levels monitor, and I saw, like, the difference that it can make when you go on a walk or when you eat protein. And all of these factors, if you’d like I can get into them, can really help us manage insulin resistance and help us reduce testosterone as a result. Because insulin resistance, sugars, high testosterone in the ovaries, and then PCOS symptoms like missing your period, not ovulating, and so on.
Katie: Yeah, let’s go deeper on some of the things that come into play with insulin resistance, and then maybe some of the things that can help resolve that.
Tallene: Yeah. So when it comes to insulin resistance, you’re most insulin sensitive in the morning. So it starts with the morning. Your morning sets you up for the rest of your day. If you have cravings for cookies, and sugar, and sweets later on, it all has to do with how you set yourself up in the morning. The morning is when you want to get 30 grams of protein. It’s when you want to stabilize your blood sugar, not just having a smoothie with, like, berries, and almond milk and almond butter. I’m talking about protein powder, making sure that you’re getting a balance of protein, carb, and fat in your breakfast. And also getting in your steps, because that can really help reduce your stress hormones, which are also related to blood sugar control. And so managing stress, walking, meditating, can have a huge impact on your ability to manage blood sugar throughout the day. And also lifting weights. Lifting weights, slow-weighted workouts, we like to call them, make a huge difference because that muscle that you’re building is picking up sugar from your bloodstream and burning it for energy.
And that’s so much better for you. Because if you have sugar floating around in your bloodstream, it’s going to store as fat in the midsection, specifically around your organs, around your liver, leading to fatty liver, and just making you feel like you’re gaining weight in the midsection the most. And so, when you’re lifting weights, you’re really getting that under control rather than doing a bunch of crunches or, like, running on the treadmill, which can actually create this stress hormone dysregulation. You’re lifting weights, you’re keeping your stress hormones balanced, and you’re also picking up that sugar in your bloodstream.
Katie: Yeah, I love both of those suggestions because I feel like the normal workout advice that’s targeted toward women is actually not very supportive of our hormones. And, you know, we could talk all day about how, in the medical world, women were just viewed as like smaller men for a long time. And our hormones weren’t taken into account at all, even in studies until 1993. And I feel like we’re just now catching up to this on the workout side as well. Like, even when it comes to workouts, we’re not just smaller men, even though lower body, pound for pound, we can be just as strong as men, we have a lot more hormonal fluctuations throughout the month than men do, which I think can actually be a superpower if you know how to use them, and to, like, work with your body, instead of just trying to force your body to do the same thing when you want it to every time.
But I think the two things you said are such really helpful statements of walking in general, which we were meant to do as humans. And we know all the statistics that we’re just not doing enough. But to your point, even a short walk after eating has a big effect on glucose. And so this is, like, one simple habit, if we can integrate just going on a 10- or 15-minute walk after every time we eat, that can make a really profound difference on insulin levels over time. And then definitely lines up with my personal journey. But I’m very much an evangelist for women lifting heavy weights now.
And I feel like the workout advice we were given for years, like, to your point, of cardio, and go to high intensity classes, and cardio, and run on the treadmill, can be really stressful to our hormones. Whereas if we’re building lean muscle mass over time, not only are we burning more at rest, and that lean muscle is supportive of our hormones, it’s also helping us deal with glucose more effectively. And it’s correlated to longevity in a whole lot of ways.
Tallene: Yeah, oftentimes, the advice that we’re given is flinging us in the wrong direction, especially with PCOS. We’re told to cut more calories, and go on the treadmill and run, and kickbox. And just, HIIT workouts can be great, but there’s a limit to that, too. Like, sometimes people are really forcing themselves into doing these intense workouts that are actually creating more fatigue, more adrenal fatigue, and more blood sugar issues, and stress, and anxiety. And I mean, I can’t even tell you how many comments I get on posts, of women who say that they were told to eat only 800 calories, and workout every single day for, like, one or two hours. And it’s going to be harder for them to lose weight because of PCOS, so they have to try extra harder. And that’s not the case. Like, in fact, you don’t have to spend hours at the gym and starve yourself. Because that’s slowing down your metabolism and making it harder for you to lose weight or harder for you to manage the root issues of PCOS. You’re breaking your metabolism further, and creating issues for the metabolic hormones that really begin the hormonal cycle.
Like, for example, insulin resistance, that can trickle down and affect your testosterone levels. Or if you’re producing too much stress hormones like cortisol, your body’s not going to produce estrogen, progesterone, all the things necessary for you to have your period. So at the end of the day, you really want to think, what’s going to support my stress hormones and my blood sugar. And it’s definitely not cutting calories and running on the treadmill all day.
Katie: For sure. And I’m so glad this is being talked about. My friend Noel, who I think runs Coconuts and Kettlebells recently posted a great thing that said, like, “When is the time you should eat 1200 calories a day?” And she went out of the room and she came back with her three-year-old and she’s like, “When you’re three years old.” Like, that’s the only time you should be eating 1200 calories a day. But women have gotten this advice for way too long. And like you said, we’re actually further stressing out, we’re sending stress signals to our body.
And I love that you pointed out in the beginning, PCOS actually was probably a protective thing. Like, this helped us survive as women. But understanding it that way, like, we need to avoid the signals that are telling our body that we’re stressed and starved, and have all of our hormones out of balance. Another one that comes to mind for me, and I would love your take on this is the light and sleep component. I actually just recorded a whole solo podcast on this. So it’s very top of mind. But the data is really fascinating on cortisol rhythms in the morning.
You said cortisol is highest in the morning, and it should be, though many people have a dysregulated cortisol rhythm and have insomnia or other issues as a result. But it turns out, from what I’ve read, morning light, it can be really important in signaling the body to have that correct circadian rhythm. And we know that sleep is very important for hormones in general. So I would love to hear your take on this and anything specific to PCOS that comes into play with light and sleep.
Tallene: Oh, definitely. Going on a walk in the mornings and walk while the sun is setting, those light rays are different. And it’s going to make a difference in your ability to sleep better at night and get some energy in the morning, because it’s going to help regulate your cortisol. I think it’s so important to make sure that you’re not staring at your phone screen at night, and just, like, ruining that light rhythm that you’re supposed to be having throughout the day. I think they call it a light diet, or something like that. Where, like, you get in great sunlight in the morning, and then you’re not on your phone all evening, because that suppresses your melatonin. And women with PCOS already struggle with melatonin. I’ve read that it’s because our melatonin receptors aren’t responsive, or it’s not because we don’t have enough melatonin, it’s that the receptors aren’t being responsive, for whatever reason. These things happen to PCOS women. And so it’s important to take it seriously because once your cortisol…let’s say your cortisol is high at night, your melatonin is going to be suppressed. And then that’s going to lead to poor quality sleep, and also cravings the next day, more insulin resistance, and more PCOS problems.
So, your sleep has a huge role and factor in your ability to manage your diet and lifestyle the next day. And even during intense workouts, like, your stress hormones will be high. And it’s hard for PCOS women to bring them back down. So that’s going to affect your sleep too. And you wouldn’t even know it because maybe you worked out, like, 1:00. But it could still affect your sleep because you’re not giving yourself a chance to bring that stress hormone down, and rest, and rejuvenate. And maybe you’re looking at your phone screen, or your computer, or TV, and that’s really making it even harder.
Katie: Yeah, great points. And on the dietary side, I would love to go deep on…because I know diet has a lot of ability to affect change for all of us, but in PCOS, especially. And I know there are some specific recommendations that go along with the specific symptoms of PCOS. And you already kind of highlighted the importance of nourishing your body, and not starving it, and not signaling those stress hormones. But I know there’s more to it than that. So when we’re looking at the root cause approach with PCOS, what are some dietary things for women to keep in mind.
Tallene: One thing I do suggest is to try going gluten and dairy free for 30 days, just to see how it affects your symptoms. These two foods can be really inflammatory. And every naturopathic doctor that I went to when I was first diagnosed, begged me to go gluten and dairy free. And when I finally did it, it really helped reduce that inflammation. And I realized that I was doing a bunch of things that was good for my PCOS, but none of it was showing because I was fueling that flame of inflammation with gluten and dairy every time I was eating. And I didn’t realize that even one slice of cheese for me in the morning, I would, like, put it on my egg or something. One slice of cheese a day was enough to give me horrible cystic acne. And if it’s showing up on the outside, it’s probably in the inside too, ovarian cysts. And that’s what I realized when I cut that out, that that’s going to help me reduce inflammation. And so many women have tried it as well, and seen great results.
And if you don’t feel like you’re sensitive to gluten and dairy, then there’s so many other things you can do as well to help you manage your inflammation and insulin resistance. So it doesn’t end there, it’s often misconstrued when I say try gluten and dairy free. Like, everyone doesn’t have to do it, but it’s definitely worth a try. Because these are two very inflammatory foods. And studies even show, like, for example, gluten, every time you eat gluten, there is a hormone called zonulin that’s released, and that causes your gut lining to loosen up, and that protein from the gluten to seep into your bloodstream, triggering chronic inflammation because your body receives that as, like, an invader. And this is in a study, it shows for everyone who eats gluten. And so for some people, it might be worse, and for others, it might be not even noticeable. But it’s worth noting and to figure that out because women with PCOS already struggle with chronic inflammation. And if that’s, like, creating more and more every time you eat it every single day, then it’s going to be really hard to manage your symptoms in other ways, because you’re still fueling that flame.
Katie: That makes sense. And it highlights I think another important trend that people are becoming aware of now, which is how personalized and individualized health truly is. And at the end of the day, each of us being our own primary health care provider and kind of doing our own experimentation. So like you said, that might be the factor that makes a huge difference for someone, and it might be a minor factor for someone else. But it’s still really good to be aware of. And it seems like also with the insulin component, and the hormone opponent, and the fact that PCOS can lead to weight gain, which often causes women to want to kind of severely restrict in diet. I would guess there are some nutrient deficiencies that can go along with PCOS, and potentially some supplements that are helpful. So I’d love your take on this. Anything supplemental that women can try and experiment with that can be helpful.
Tallene: Oh, absolutely. So just having inflammation alone makes it harder to absorb certain nutrients, zinc, magnesium, omega-3 fats. The women with PCOS struggle to absorb omega-3 fats from seeds and nuts, and we absorb it better from fatty fish. And that’s because of the D60 enzyme. Like, not to get too into this right now, but there’s an enzyme that doesn’t work properly because we have inflammation, and so we’ll absorb omega-3 better if we get it from our fish. And that’s why a fish oil supplement is so important because most likely, we’re not eating fish every single day. But to get in those omega-3 fats to help support our hormone health, taking an omega-3 supplement is such a great idea. And also a curcumin supplement has shown to create some great health benefits in reducing inflammation. It’s a very potent anti-inflammatory supplement. And because PCOS women struggle with inflammation, it can be very helpful to take that consistently to keep that inflammation level nice and low. And then there’s a great multivitamin that you could take that will cover all of the nutrients that might be stripped from you from taking medications like birth control and metformin. So those medications strip you of B12, zinc, magnesium, all essential for insulin sensitivity. So a good multivitamin is also important.
Katie: And I know another recommendation that often goes along with, I would guess some of the symptoms of PCOS like insulin resistance and weight gain is some form of time restricted feeding or intermittent fasting, and/or some longer form of fasting. And I’ve experimented with all of these, but I don’t…like I mentioned, I don’t have PCOS, so I know there’s some additional considerations that come into play when you’re talking about PCOS and the hormone implications. But for instance, I have Dr. Satchin Panda on this podcast before, who’s the most researcher on time restricted feeding and how often eating in even just a little bit shorter of a window might help improve insulin sensitivity for people. Is that true in women with PCOS as well? Or does that teeter on the line of stress signals to the body?
Tallene: It depends from person to person. I’ve found that a 12-hour window is a nice, you know, happy medium. There’s 13, 14, 15 hour fasts that can actually get really stressful. So you will know if it’s too stressful for you, you’ll feel it. You’ll be, like, stressed, you know what I mean. So you are your best, like, advocate for that.
But a 12-hour fasting window is great, because it gives you a great amount of time to keep your insulin hormone nice and low, so your body can rest and recover. And that’s so much better for insulin resistance than you snacking throughout the night, and just, you know, eating all the way up until bedtime, and not creating that window for yourself. That 12-hour window is really important. It can definitely help with managing your weight as well, because you’re helping your insulin resistance. I did forget to mention a supplement, I just realized, that’s great for insulin resistance, and it’s inositol Have you heard of inositol?
Katie: Yeah, I’ve heard of it and I’ve experimented with it a little bit, but I don’t think we’ve talked about it on the podcast. So I would love for you to give us a primer on it.
Tallene: Oh, definitely. I mean, inositol is the most researched supplement for PCOS. I should have started with this when you asked me about supplements. Inositol is the most research supplement, and it helps with egg quality, ovulation. So many women talk about how it improves their cravings, their symptoms, their testosterone levels, because it really targets insulin resistance. There’s a supplement called Ovasitolthat has a 40:1 ratio of Myo and D-Chiro inositol. And this ratio is really important for PCOS women.
Studies have shown that this helps improve insulin sensitivity as much as metformin, and it works just as effectively, except without all of the side effects. And so I talk about this a lot because so many women are given metformin for their blood sugar control. And we’re just missing that 40:1 ratio in our cells, and that’s attributing to the insulin resistance and making it so hard for us to manage it through diet.
Because at a certain point, it’s like you’re cravings, they’re not your fault. Like, it’s hormonal, you have an issue with your cellular metabolism that’s triggering that. It’s not just because you didn’t eat breakfast. It can start with that, but it can also be this genetic component. And so taking a supplement that directly supplements what’s missing, which is the 40:1 ratio, is so important if you have insulin resistance, especially if you want to get pregnant with PCOS.
Katie: That’s really good to know. I’ve seen it recommended from the sleep perspective as well. It seems like it’s really supportive of quality sleep, which we already talked about being another important factor in supporting your hormones through this.
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And I’m glad that you brought up cravings as well, because that’s one thing I’ve noticed and I try to encourage women is, like, if you’re having hormonally based cravings, it does not matter how strong your willpower is. You could have iron willpower, it still eventually will crash because your hormones are part of your survival mechanism. And you will not be able to out-willpower forever your hormones, because they’re designed to be in charge. And so working with them is a much better solution. But when it comes to taking Inositol or Inositol, however you say it, are there any recommendations on timing, or what time of day? Since it is also sleep supportive. Is there time you’d like to take it during the day?
Tallene: Yes. So I suggest taking it with your breakfast and with your dinner, 2000 milligrams at breakfast, 2000 milligrams at dinner, because that’s what the studies reflect. And so whenever I suggest a supplement, it’s always related to studies done on PCOS women, because we’re very specific. And the dosages matter, the amounts of time to take, it matters when you take it. So I do suggest taking it with breakfast and dinner. It’s like a powder you mix with water, Ovasitol is, because if you were gonna get 4000 milligrams in pill dosage, you’re gonna be swallowing like eight pills, and it’s a lot. So they created a powder formula, it doesn’t taste like anything, and you just mix it with water.
Katie: Good to know. And I want to make sure we touch on some of the more common complaints I hear from women with PCOS and make sure we get some good solutions related to these specific ones. And one being weight gain is often seems like very common with PCOS, even, like, really substantial weight gain within a short period of time. Do these strategies that we’re talking about help resolve the weight gain side and help women lose weight again? Because it seems like women often, once they have PCOS, have trouble losing weight.
Tallene: Absolutely. Losing weight with PCOS has to do with managing your metabolic hormones. So like I said, insulin and cortisol, these are two metabolic hormones that have the biggest impact on our ability to produce the right hormones to get our periods regulated, and our mood and all of our symptoms. And so if you want to lose weight with PCOS, you have to keep this top of mind when you make diet and lifestyle changes. So, for example, you had brought up intermittent fasting, I almost said inflammation. So let’s say you do intermittent fasting, it could be great for your insulin levels. It could be bad for your cortisol if it’s too much. So keeping those two hormones top of mind is going to help you be able to lose weight with PCOS. And also reducing inflammation, driving that flame of inflammation with foods that are inflammatory, a lifestyle that is really just full of toxins, or sugar, or processed foods. This in combination with the genetic factors of PCOS makes it really difficult to lose weight. So, reducing the inflammation and managing your blood sugar are key to being able to lose weight with PCOS.
Katie: And what about the symptoms, like, actual ovarian cysts and hair loss, seems like another common one with PCOS. Can those be not just managed but eventually reversed as well?
Tallene: Absolutely. When we’re diagnosed with PCOS, it’s like a sentence. Like, no one is told that you can reverse all of this, your cysts can go away, your skin can clear, and your hair can grow back. But I’m here to tell you, if you’re listening and you have PCOS, you can and you will, you know. And if you want to, let’s say, get rid of ovarian cysts, you have to create an environment for your ovaries that is insulin sensitive and low in inflammation, because these are really triggering for high testosterone, and then that makes it harder for you to ovulate, and then the egg gets stuck and turns into cysts over time.
And you would be surprised how the picture of your ovaries can change in three months by changing your diet and lifestyle to be less inflammatory and more blood sugar friendly. And I’ve actually seen this from people, from first of all, myself. And also, people send me screenshots of their ultrasounds, and they show me, they’re like, “Look, I don’t have ovarian cysts anymore. I went gluten and dairy free, or I followed this, this, and this, and it really helped me. And I was able to get rid of all of the ovarian cysts and also manage symptoms like hair loss, or facial hair growth.”
Because this has to do with hyperandrogenism. And hyperandrogenism comes from mainly having either high stress hormones or blood sugar dysregulation. When you create a lot of stress hormones, they can convert into androgens. When you have insulin resistance, it can trigger high androgens. And that testosterone gathers around your hair follicle causing it to weaken and to fall out. And the hair follicle shrinks and it’s hard to regrow your hair back. And it also gathers around the facial hair follicle turning the light hair into dark hair. And that’s where that dark facial hair can come from. But not to worry, like, you can still reverse that as well, if you get your androgens under control and reduce testosterone. And there’s lots you can do from managing your blood sugar to drinking spearmint tea, which studies show can help reduce your testosterone by having three cups of tea a day instead of caffeine.
Katie: That’s a great tip and one I haven’t heard before. And you mentioned that for many women with PCOS, that it feels like a sentence. And that’s how it’s often given, is, like, this is now a thing that you have that’s never going to go away. And like I said, I don’t have experience with PCOS, but I had that experience with Hashimoto’s. And I was told I have Hashimoto’s, that it will never go away, the best that can happen is it can go into remission. And they don’t even really tell you that can happen in the conventional medical world. And following similar tips, I think there’s a little bit of overlap because of the hormonal component with Hashimoto’s as well in the autoimmune side. Mine is now I would say not even just in remission, it’s like I don’t test with any of the markers of Hashimoto’s anymore. I don’t have to take anything to manage it. But that also came from looking at the root cause approach and supporting my body, not depriving it, and looking at nutrient density of my foods.
Another one I’ve seen recommended for PCOS is consuming enough green vegetables and leafy greens to sort of… I’ve heard it’s a bind to the excess hormones that are in the body. Is that helpful? And is that something you recommend?
Tallene: Yeah, that definitely is something I recommend because it grabs onto that excess estrogen and it helps your body process it, it helps your liver process it and excrete it. And having excess estrogen and estrogen dominance, along with high androgen levels, is a recipe for all of the PCOS symptoms, cystic acne, moodiness, hair loss, fatigue, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, I definitely think dark leafy greens are super important. And also supporting your liver and reducing your alcohol intake, because that can affect your ability to process those excess hormones, and also affects your ability to sleep properly. So, liver health is really important.
Katie: And that’s true for the whole body, kind of with the liver as a master regulator. Are there any other ways we can support liver health?
Tallene: I used to take a daily liver supplement when I was first managing my PCOS, because we often have fatty liver. And so, if you have fatty liver, this is certainly something that you can manage, and you want to take seriously because if you ignore it, it can turn into worse things like cirrhosis and so on. But once you have fatty liver and you have PCOS, I would say really hone in on managing insulin resistance. Because insulin resistance leads to your body storing sugar as fat around your organs like your liver, and your heart, and your midsection. And so you can certainly get that under control if you manage your insulin resistance.
Katie: Got it. And I would guess with the potential of weight gain that can come with PCOS and the insulin resistance aspect, many women probably turn toward a keto type diet, or, like, severely cutting carbs, along with intermittent fasting, which we already talked about. I’m curious your take on this, because there’s certainly a myriad of opinions on if women should do keto, and if it should be a modified version. So do you think it’s helpful or is it counterproductive? What is your advice when it comes to carbs for women with PCOS?
Tallene: I love talking about carbs. Thank you for asking. Keto is thrown around so much in the PCOS world, because what easier way to reduce your insulin levels than to not eat any carbs, you know? So you’re just not eating any carbs, there’s no way your insulin levels can go up. I mean, they could, but not that much. And there you go, problem solved, insulin resistance reduce. But that’s actually not the case.
That’s what’s thought might happen, but it’s not very sustainable. And so, a lot of women lose weight with PCOS when they go keto, because it helps with their insulin resistance. Some women get pregnant very easily when they do the keto diet, because immediately, their insulin levels are under control. But from a long term perspective, I feel that understanding your carb tolerance is a more sustainable way to go about your carbs. And that means perhaps starting at 120 to 150 grams of carbs per day, tracking it to see if you’re getting within that range, if you feel comfortable tracking. And evaluate how you feel. If you’re super fatigued after your meal, maybe the carbs were too much. If you’re hungry after a meal, maybe they were too little, or maybe you have to boost your protein intake. You have to test it around a little bit. But my suggestion is not to immediately go to keto as soon as you’re diagnosed, or eat less than 50 grams of carbs, because that’s what somebody told you helped them lose weight. Because it’s not very sustainable.
And then once you start eating carbs, again, it’s hard because you might find that you’re gaining weight, and you don’t really know, like, how much to eat. The topic of carbs is really touchy because as soon as someone’s diagnosed, and they’re scared, and vulnerable, and then they’re told never to eat carbs, again, especially at a young age, 16, 18, whenever you’re diagnosed, it kind of triggers you for, like, a lifetime of stressful eating patterns with carbs, specifically carbs, not just calories. And I see that a lot. And it’s hard to reintroduce carbs into your diet, because you’re scared, because this has apparently been the culprit of PCOS. You know what I mean? So that’s what they make it out to be like. So, carbs can be a scary thing to reintroduce. But I do feel that we all have a certain carb tolerance depending on our level of insulin resistance. And we should find that so that we feel satisfied after our meals, and we don’t feel like you’re starving, or craving, or miserable. And once you feel satisfied and happy with the way you’re eating, and it’s nurturing your metabolic hormones, you’re gonna feel like this is a sustainable lifestyle. You’re gonna slowly lose weight and naturally lose weight. Your body is going to metabolize what you’re eating, rather than you forcing it to lose weight with low calorie, low carb, lots of exercise. And it’s going to feel more normal for you.
Katie: Yeah, I think that’s very, very helpful perspective. And I’m glad you also mentioned protein in that explanation, because I’m gonna step on my soapbox for a minute when it comes to protein. I’m sure my listeners might be even a little tired of me saying this. But it was such a big key for me in realizing that with all the years of thyroid issues, and having trouble losing weight, which is similar for women with PCOS. I had over-restricted calories for so long that my body was stressed, my stress hormones were all out of whack. And for me, actually learning to eat more food, and especially more protein, was a big key in signaling to my body that I was safe and nourishing it appropriately, so that it could let go of weight and not feel like it was starving. And so I feel like, and also women are not often given that recommendation as often as men are. I think men are better about protein consumption because they think more muscle-centric than women do a lot of the time.
But that’s just one encouragement I now give to a lot of women is, like, especially if you’re struggling with weight in any capacity, or just the willpower side and feeling hungry, experiment with getting enough protein. Because it could be that the reason you’re craving more food is your body actually needs it. And I now eat much more than I used to, and track food to make sure I’m eating enough food and way less than I used to. So just I always want to bring that up when there’s a chance because I think undereating can be as damaging as overeating if you have stress hormones out of balance.
Tallene: Music to my ears. I completely agree. Like, undereating can slow down your metabolism. Over-exercising slows down your metabolism. As soon as you start supporting your metabolic hormones and eating protein, like you said, eating less inflammatory foods, making sure you’re supporting your metabolism with proper supplements, then you’re going to start naturally losing weight. And your body is just going to be working properly again. But it does take a lot of thought work and intention to make sure that, okay, I’m eating lunch, like, how do I make this high in protein? Or, okay, let me carve out a 10-minute walk after my lunch to help with my insulin resistance. You know, there’s just so many things to think about. It’s just habit stacking too, it’s like, once you start, you know, when you’re ready, you introduce another thing, you don’t have to do it all at once, take it one step at a time.
Katie: Yeah, that’s really, really helpful to keep that in mind, for sure, so you don’t get overwhelmed. Because I know, probably similarly to how you felt, getting a diagnosis can be scary and overwhelming. And then part of you wants to just jump in and do everything and fix it. And then that can overwhelm you and actually make it harder in the long term. So I think that’s a really good approach. I’d also love to hear from the practical angle, maybe what a day in the management of PCOS looks like. And kind of your own personal 80-20 and habits that you use that you find most impactful.
Tallene: Okay. Yeah, I can walk you through, like, my personal regular day managing PCOS. So, typically, I’ll wake up and I’ll do my workout in the morning. That’s when I have the most time. That’s when I feel like my cortisol is high, so I burn it off, right, in a nice, slow-weighted workout. It really sets me up for good blood sugar regulation throughout the day, as well. And then after my slow-weighted workout, I’ll have a protein shake, make sure I get in, like, 25 grams of protein from that shake. And then a couple hours later, or, like, one hour later, I’ll actually have breakfast, which might be a couple eggs, gluten free toast and almond butter, something like that. And I say this because one egg is only seven grams of protein. And so, like, if you think two eggs is enough, it’s really not. So I have to pair it with a protein shake. And then after breakfast, I sometimes go on a walk. But most likely, I’ll go on a walk after lunch. And then I do take my supplements in the morning. I get that all ready to go. And just, like, I’ve set myself up. Like, I got my workout in, my protein in, now my supplements, my morning is set.
And then I’ll have my lunch, which is also high in protein. I’ll go on my walk. And then at night, I go on a short walk, and I make sure that I have really good sleep hygiene. At this point, like, at night, I am so strict now, because it makes such a big difference in my ability to sleep deeply and get quality sleep. And by strict, I mean, I’m not staring at my phone. I’m trying really hard to, like, read or do something other than something that’s going to stimulate my cortisol. And yeah, that’s my evening routine, making sure that I’m doing, like, the light and fluffy things at the end of the day to bring the cortisol back down. And I do the 12-hour fast as well between dinner and breakfast.
Katie: I love that. It seems like for a lot of people, making sure you get the protein in the morning, and if you’re going to shorten your eating window, shortening it closer to bedtime, versus in the morning, especially for women seems more helpful. I’ve experimented with this, and I’ve heard from a lot of people, listeners and readers, who have experimented as well. And while often I feel like intermittent fasting, they’re, like, just skip breakfast, and just eat lunch, and then just stop eating. It doesn’t support female hormones very well. So if you want to eat in a shorter window without stressing your stress hormones, it seems to make a lot of sense to do what you do, where you’re fueling your body in the morning, you’re signaling that you are getting nourished, you’re getting protein, you’re getting supplements. And if you’re going to stop eating earlier, stop eating at, like, dark or dinner, and give yourself a few hours before bed to digest and get that all out of your system. Versus, you know, just giving yourself coffee in the morning, having your cortisol jacked up, and not getting food in the morning.
Tallene: Exactly. I completely… Once you start relying on coffee for your energy, instead of having your protein and a great breakfast, we’re already setting ourselves up for cortisol dysregulation. Coffee, sometimes when it’s used as a crutch to give us energy is just a sign that we’re missing some components where we have to change things around in our diets and our lifestyles. And so, I definitely do not, like, support using coffee as a crutch. But one cup a day, like, if it’s not your crutch, if it’s something you like, I completely understand. But yeah, coffee is really very common and so controversial. Whenever I post about it, people are like,” Wait, can I have decaf?” I’m like, Yeah, “You can have decaf.”
Katie: Yeah. Or if you’re gonna do caffeine, the two roles I try to keep in mind. My personal one is always protein before caffeine. And then Dr. Amy Shah was on the podcast and her rule was, sky before screens. So in the morning, morning sunlight before you look at your phone. And I feel like those are just two little helpful things to remember, that, like, if you’re going to do those things anyway, if you’re going to look at your phone, which we probably all are, or if you want to drink caffeine, if you can just do them in that order, it’s a little bit less stressful on your body.
Tallene: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I also love how you mentioned earlier, the 80-20 approach, because every day isn’t going to be perfect. Like, you’re not going to always avoid caffeine. Sometimes you’re going to need… So, like, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. It’s gonna happen. You’re gonna have to get through your day, maybe you’re gonna reach for the coffee. Or I’m gluten and dairy free as well, and sometimes I’ll have gluten, like, on accident, or I’m really hungry, and I have no choice, and I wasn’t prepared. Like, these things happen.
And PCOS is a lifelong thing. And if you want to keep it in remission forever, you can’t get caught up on those small moments of, you know, imperfection. It’s okay, like, this is part of life. This is part of the process. And if you’re doing well most of the time, and you’re really supporting your metabolism and hormones, then that’s great, you know. And if you get caught up on things, it’s just going to hold you back and make you feel like you’re not doing good enough, and then kind of inhibit you from continuing.
Katie: Yeah, I think you’re right, 80-20 lets us keep the perfect from being the enemy of the good, or, like, getting stuck in that cycle of, like, “Oh, I already messed up today, so I’ll just give up the whole rest of the day. And I’ll just start again tomorrow.” I even heard the recommendation to kind of break your day into four-hour blocks. Instead of thinking it as, like, a day as a block, it’s like four separate blocks during the day. So even if something doesn’t go perfect in the morning block, it doesn’t restart the next day, it restarts at noon. And now you’re back on track. And just, like, those little things. I think mindset…this also points toward, mindset’s a huge piece of this. And I think you’ve given so many great tools that help us have control and ability to shift these things in a physiological way.
But also that, like, give us that mindset of knowing that we can improve these things, and getting in control of it, and not being overwhelmed. And I think that also is a huge puzzle piece of any kind of chronic condition that you’re dealing with, is being able to keep that mindset for the long term.
Tallene: Exactly. That bigger picture mindset. And just realizing that you have more control over PCOS than you think or than you were told that you have. And if you just take it one step at a time, implement these habits we’ve talked about one step at a time, then eventually, it’ll be your lifestyle. It’ll feel so good to you, you won’t want to stop. And it’ll just be this thing that you do, and you won’t even notice that it’s your habits, you know. It’s not going to be so inconvenient for you to think of, like, oh, gosh, how do I get my protein? And it’s going to be, you know, a habit, a normal habit.
Katie: I love it. Well, as we get close to the end of our time, a few last questions I love to ask. The first being if there is a book or a number of books that have profoundly influenced you personally. And if so, what they are and why.
Tallene: Oh, I love this question. Well, okay, I have two books in mind. One is “PCOS SOS,” which is an excellent book written by a gynecologist who also studied functional medicine. You can turn to any page and learn something new about PCOS. You don’t have to start from the beginning, you know. And she has research studies cited, and it’s really digestible the way that she states this kind of, like, information about PCOS and what’s going on with our bodies. So that was really life changing for me, that book. I also went to that gynecologist as well. Her name is Dr. Felice Gersh. So that was a great book on PCOS.
And then another book I love is “101 Essays That Change the Way You Think.” This is, again, one of those books that you don’t have to read from start to finish, you kind of, like, flip through it. And I like to read it in between books. So once I, like, finish something, then I’ll read that, and then I’ll start something else. So it’s my in between book that I really like.
Katie: I love it. And those are both new recommendations. I’ll make sure they’re linked in the show notes as well for any of you guys listening, that’s wellnessmama.fm, along with show notes I’ve been taking during this whole conversation. And for anyone who has PCOS and is wanting to get it under control and have the same results that you did, I know that you have a lot of resources available online. Can you just walk us through, and I’ll make sure there are links in the show notes as well, but walk us through the resources you have available.
Tallene: Sure. First, we have our website pcosweightloss.org, where you can find everything there as well. We also have our Instagram account pcos.weightloss. And our app that just launched called The Cysterhood. It’s spelled C-Y-S-T-E-R-H-O-O-D. That’s basically a tool that can help you with applying all of these diet and lifestyle changes for PCOS weight loss.
Katie: I love it. So those links will be in the show notes as well. And any parting advice for the listeners today that could be related to everything we’ve talked about or entirely unrelated life advice.
Tallene: Yeah. I feel that we have this incredible ability to heal ourselves. And whether or not you were told that in the beginning when you were first diagnosed, it’s never too late, you can always reverse your symptoms, keep them in remission, and live symptom free with PCOS. Just because you’re struggling with it now doesn’t mean that you’re going to be struggling with it forever. So keep that in mind as you are paving your way and figuring out how to reverse these symptoms.
Katie: I love it. And I think that’s a perfect place to wrap up for today. But I’m so grateful to you for being here and for all the work you’re doing to help so many women. So thank you so much.
Tallene: Sure. Thank you so much for having me. This was a pleasure.
Katie: And thanks as always to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama Podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.