892: The Liver & Gallbladder Connection to Hashimoto’s With Divya Gupta

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and I am back today with Divya Gupta to tackle the topic of the liver and gallbladder connection to Hashimoto’s that you may not know about, as well as, of course, ones that are more familiar, like the connection to weight gain and cortisol issues, among others. And Divya is absolutely fascinating. We get to hear some of her personal story in this episode, as well as my last episode with her. But she is a functional nutritionist who really specializes in empowering people to transcend their genetic and familial health patterns using functional and real-world strategies that have proven very effective and that you can see in her work with her many clients.

I love that in this episode, we get to really delve into what’s going on, the connection between your liver, your gallbladder. She talks about the three organ systems we need to support in order to truly support the thyroid, including the gut, the adrenals, and the liver. Why, if you’re hypothyroid, you’re more likely to have non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. And so much more. Even as someone who has in the past had thyroid issues, I learned a lot of new things in this episode. I bet you will too. So without any further wait, let’s join her now. Divya, welcome back. Thanks for being here again.

Divya: Oh, thanks, Katie. I’m so excited for part 2.

Katie: Well, if you guys missed our first conversation, I will link to it in the show notes because I think it’s very helpful and foundational for today’s conversation because we get to talk about your journey through following your mom’s path of her experience of autoimmunity and then what shifted that for you.

And you touched on something that I feel like is going to be really important to dive deeper on today, which is the gallbladder connection to Hashimoto’s. I don’t hear this being talked about. I feel like you’re one of the few voices in this, and I feel like it can be really relevant because a lot of our listeners have been given a diagnosis of Hashimoto’s, so I feel like this is relevant to their experience. And I don’t feel like, I mean, I certainly was never told by any of the doctors that I worked with that there was even a potential for this. So again, for anybody who missed it, there’s a lot of background in our first conversation, but in this one, I really want to dive deep on the gallbladder and liver connection to Hashimoto’s. You mentioned that you had gallbladder issues. So let’s start there, maybe just kind of reiterating your own experience and then walking us through what going on with that connection.

Divya: Oh, yeah. You know, even I’m surprised, Katie, just like you, that not a lot of conversations are happening around the liver-gallbladder connection with the thyroid. You know, I’ve definitely tried on many podcasts every avenue I get to really talk more about it. So, you know, I mentioned in part one of my story was at the age of 20, my gallbladder was taken out.

And just to dive a little bit into the story, and I was seemingly healthy, you know, of what I remember. I didn’t know, you know, your body, I’m sure it was giving symptoms, but I really didn’t know how to listen to those symptoms or what was going on. But my gallbladder attacks just started randomly one night, you know, I would just wake up with pain around 2 a.m. in the morning. So in traditional Chinese medicine, we know it’s like around 2 a.m. is when your liver and gallbladder detoxes. I didn’t know that then, but every night, like clockwork, 2 a.m., I’m up in the pain. And the pain was very subtle in the beginning. Maybe in 30 minutes or an hour, it would go away. And I was like, okay, maybe it’s just gas. Maybe it’s just I ate something funny during that day. I did not even wake up my parents for it. I just dealt with it.

But the pain just intensified night after night until, you know, I finally told my mom about it and she was like, wake me up next time. Because it’s happening so consistently, it kept happening and the pain kept intensifying. And it was, I couldn’t sit. Like, I just had to keep pacing the room. If anybody who has been through this pain could probably relate to it. It’s just a weird twisting. You just feel like your stomach is twisting. And I would just keep pacing in the room.

And we tried different meds. You know, the doctors gave different medicines to try. Nothing ever worked. And eventually, one night, I was in excruciating pain. They were like, okay, let’s just go to the hospital. And they happen to have a radiologist at that hour. And they did an ultrasound. And then, oh, you have gallstones. I was like, oh, great. Now at least we know what it is, though I really didn’t know what it meant.

And that subsequently led to, okay, let’s now go to the endocrinologist. They’re like, okay, we just got to take it out. That was the only option given. And I don’t think my parents knew or I knew, hey, what else? What could this mean? I wish I had some blood work to look into, dig in further what else was going on in the body. Because, Katie, I truly believe that nothing in our body works in isolation. Our body is so complex and beautiful. Everything is interconnected. And that’s the model of the Western system, which is now, even in India, right? You know, the Ayurveda and all the traditional Chinese medicine is so, it’s not in the forefront. Okay, with your thyroid, let’s just work on your thyroid. With your gallbladder, let’s just deal with that. But to look at what could be going on, again, I didn’t know at that point, so lo and behold, okay, my pain intensified.

At one point, I was throwing up and I just had to be taken to an emergency room, got my gallbladder out. And it was, again, it’s a quick laparoscopic quick surgery. After a few days in the hospital, I was back home recovering. And carry on with my life. I was preparing to come to the US at that point.

Again, and then a few years down the road, I got Hashimoto’s diagnosis. And even then, I did not really know to look. But the connection, but your thyroid and liver have a very symbiotic relationship. They work together. They influence each other’s function. And knowing what I know now, I absolutely believe there was a thyroid dysregulation probably going on. And my gallbladder was the one actually making the sound. And I tell, you know, in my space, you know, I really try to tell, hey, when your thyroid is dysregulated, or when you have Hashimoto’s diagnosis, which leads to hypothyroidism, it’s like just the tip of the iceberg. That’s just the yellow canary in the coal mine that’s sounding the alarm. We really need to look deeper into three main organs to really help the thyroid is your liver, your adrenals, and the gut, without which your thyroid will never really get back to where you want it to be.

So and again, I was just given a Hashimoto’s diagnosis and a Synthroid medication. Off you go. Never a conversation about diet, lifestyle. Even today, I have to advocate for myself to get all the blood tests I need, or I just run it myself because my antibodies can reduce. My endocrinologist, even today, I have these emails back and forth where she doesn’t believe gluten makes a difference or we don’t need to keep testing your antibodies. Once you have them, you have them forever. You don’t have, it can never go down. It’s just mind boggling.

So, I can get into the, this is my, I geek out on this, Katie, but your liver and thyroid have like a similar relationship. They influence each other’s function. And my gallbladder, which again, even though it was taken out, it really didn’t solve the problem because the stones was not the problem. Why did the stones get there? Or why did the stones form? And you have to look upstream. Liver is where the bile is from. The gallbladder is just your storage unit for bile. So it can be used when the body needs it. But the liver has to be, it’s connected. And then how does the thyroid influence?

So all of these things was a decade long of unraveling and working on it. And I tell everyone today, if you have gallstones issue or gallbladder, which 600,000 surgeries are performed in the U.S. alone. You could get your thyroid checked. Or if you have your thyroid dysregulated you know, look at your liver and your gallbladder health. It has a direct correlation.

Katie: Yeah, I love hearing wonderful explanations like that of how the body is so intricately connected. To me, it makes sense that nothing could exist in isolation, but I think that’s still easy to overlook when we’re having a symptom that feels very acute, that feels like the problem. And as you explained so perfectly, like everything, of course, is downstream of each other. We work in this perfect symbiotic system. So just kind of laser focusing on whatever the acute symptom is, is not necessarily addressing what is actually the underlying sort of cause of what’s going on. And I love that so much about your approach.

I love also that you mentioned the three organs to look at to support the thyroid being the liver, the adrenals, and the gut. And I would guess many people listening who have gone through thyroid issues have also noticed potentially like digestive or gut issues, or they may not have noticed, but have had symptoms related to liver issues, for instance. I feel like that one’s maybe less understood. Can you walk us through what you found and what are some ways that we can all support those different organ systems and then by doing thyroids as well.

Divya: Absolutely. So I’ll, you know, based like in a quick anatomy lesson, just for everyone. So this helps frame the conversation. So your thyroid, which is just a butterfly shaped organ that sits at the base of your neck is, and you think, how is it connected to the gut where people just point to the belly? I’m going to talk about the gut, but your gut is from your mouth all the way to your anus. You can say that on the podcast. You know, it’s the, your interface is the outside world, and your adrenals sit on top of your kidneys and your liver, you know, it’s from the right-hand side.

How are they all interconnected? Because your thyroid, when the hormones that the thyroid produce, it’s used by every single organ in your body, by every single cell in your body, absorbs the thyroid hormone to do what it needs to do. And we have trillions of cells or probably more. Everything needs the thyroid hormone. So, yes, when your thyroid dysregulates, you are going to feel symptoms or experience digestive symptoms because it’s thyroid control, your gut motility. How well you digest, your digestive enzyme production. And again, it’s a symbiotic relationship. Your health of your gut could also influence your thyroid health because your gut is responsible for extracting the nutrients out of your food and we need selenium zinc and iodine and vitamin A and all the amino acids for our thyroid to function well.

And you know when we a lot of the one of the most common symptoms is you know either constipation or diarrhea or you know shuffling between the two, it could be because your thyroid has slowed down your gut mortality how fast the food that you’ve eaten is moving through it or you don’t have the right microbiome balance and that’s leading to backup and that can influence how well your thyroid functions is because you know the two main hormones that your thyroid produces which is people think of it as inactive and T3 which is your active hormone. Your body needs to convert the T4 to T3. And a part of it happens in the gut tissues. So we need our gut health to, it’s super, super critical to ensure that we are converting it into the active hormones. Because your cells only have receptors for the T3, not the T4. So in that way, your thyroid and gut are connected and can influence each other.

And then with adrenals, you know, we think of adrenals as a stress hormone. It’s a fight or flight, right? And I like to describe the cortisol as what everyone knows, which gets such a bad connotation, a bad rap, but it’s not bad at all. We need it. We can’t get out of bed if we don’t have the right cortisol in our system. And it follows a rhythm. But yes, I mean, when it’s chronically high. And if you’re chronically in a state of fight or flight, that’s where things can go awry, right? So I described the thyroid hormone and cortisol as the brake and the accelerator in the car, your cortisol is the accelerator and your thyroid as the brake. I’ve never tried it, but I don’t think the car is going to run if I press both.

So similarly, in our body, if you’re constantly in a state of fight or flight and our cortisol is high, the thyroid is going to take a backseat. And I’m like, so in that way, your cortisol, your adrenals can influence your thyroid function. It can inhibit the conversion of that T4 to T3. Or it can shuttle the T4 down the reverse T3 part, which looks like T3, but does squat for you. It’s just, it can just block. So it can shuttle that. And so that way your adrenals are connected. That’s why managing stress external stressors and also the internal stresses that we experience managing that is so important.

And then coming down to the liver, right? As you said, not a lot of people know how the liver can play a role, but liver does so much for us. And everyone just thinks of it as the detox organ. Yes. Yes, and it does like 500 different other things that has right now been listed. It builds, that’s where cholesterol is created. Most of the cholesterol is produced by our own body. And liver is a place where a lot of hormones are synthesized. It metabolizes our hormones. It’s also the place for blood sugar regulation. Liver plays a huge role. And yes, detoxification, again, it goes through a couple of phases. So a liver does so much.

And, you know, going back to the liver and gallbladder connection, so your thyroid influences how much cholesterol is produced and how much is produced. And the bile is produced in the liver and cholesterol is one of the main constituents of bile apart from bile salt, lecithin, and all the other raw materials.

So if your thyroid and liver are not functioning, either or, you know, chicken or the egg, what’s going on? It can, your bile, the bile doesn’t look like the way it’s supposed to be. It can be thicker. It doesn’t look right. And then what’s stored or it’s not squeezing out because you don’t have enough of the thyroid hormone, the T3, we just think it’s outwardly, you know, we need thyroid hormone for output energy, but our cells also require energy to do different things. So even squeezing out the bile from the gallbladder takes a lot of cellular energy to do that. And if we don’t have that, your bile is probably not squeezing out and you can see how the bile can back up, create sludge and stones could form, right? So in that regard the liver and thyroid is so connected.

And another interesting stat I was reading up is if you have hypothyroidism, don’t quote me, but I think I read like you’re 42% more likely to get a fatty liver. It’s a big metabolic syndrome that we are dealing with in the current time is fatty liver, non-alcoholic fatty liver. It’s just your liver is, you know, pumped up with so much fat, it really can’t do its job. So, and liver is also, I forgot to mention, another place where the T4 to T3 conversion happens, 60% of it happens in the liver.

So the liver does so much for us. And that’s why it’s so important to take care of a liver because If it’s busy managing your blood sugar or just, you know, you’re bombarding with so much toxins that it’s trying to detox or it’s not able to work, it’s like I can’t do everything. I’m not going to be converting T4 to T3 because I’m busy doing everything else you’re asking me to do. So that’s why it’s so important to take care of the liver and how all of these organs are connected to the thyroid organ influence how the thyroid works.

Katie: That was a great overview and explanation. And you mentioned cortisol, which I would love to also dive a little deeper on because this seems to be having its moment of popularity on social media. But as you touched on, it seems to be getting also painted as the problem. And as you already explained a little bit, like it’s not in and of itself the problem. It’s understanding the amount, the timing, the cycle. There’s a lot more that goes into this.

And I would guess there’s also a connection here to a part of thyroid issues we haven’t yet tackled, which is for many people, the weight gain that can come along with it. And so if there’s a connection there, can you kind of walk us through what’s happening from a cortisol perspective and or from a weight-gain perspective when we have something going on with the thyroid?

Divya: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is having a moment. And I still see adrenal fatigue going on in social media. But I think adrenal fatigue is sort of it’s a myth. It’s not really like a diagnosis. It’s not that it’s not that adrenals are tired and not producing the cortisol. So for again, a little bit of anatomy. Your brain is your command center and the brain is the one controlling everything and sending signals to your thyroid, here, produce a hormone, even to your adrenals, here, we need some cortisol now or even to your sex organs.

So as you know for as I said earlier your cortisol is like we need cortisol, we need that’s what gets us out of bed in the morning and it has a circadian rhythm. It’s highest you know a couple of hours, 30 minutes after we wake up and then it’s supposed to it’s like a bell curve, it’s supposed to taper down and that’s what gets us sleepy and gets us into bed. It’s when this rhythm is off you know when a lot of women are like and they’re tired, but I can’t sleep, it’s mostly because your cortisol, when it’s supposed to be lower, it’s super high and that’s why I’m not letting you go to bed, or when you can’t get out of bed, in the morning because it’s supposed to your body’s supposed to produce the cortisol get you out of bed and it’s low and you can’t get out of bed. So it’s not your fault, it’s this rhythm, you know, the brain not getting the signal or, you know, the brain is sending the signal and the organ is not just getting it to produce it.

And again, yes, there’s a certain amount we need and how much we use it depends on the stress we are going through. Are we like, hey, the tiger is chasing us and the body is like getting you, you know, using it faster than a body is able to produce. Sometimes that could be going on. So, so that’s why like there’s so much more to this tiny little organ and the cortisol, it does so much more gets.

In terms of weight gain so it again plays a huge role when it comes to blood sugar regulation. And when you have hypothyroidism, you know, our way we can metabolize carbs is greatly influenced. So when we are in a state of, you know, high, you’d say high stress, your cortisol is higher. Your body thinks we are in danger. It’s going to start, a body does not know the difference between I’m stressed because I have a work deadline versus I’m getting chased by a tiger. It doesn’t have that nuance. It’s either am I safe or not safe.

So if it thinks we are in danger, it’s going to pull out all the stops to make sure that we can, we are ready. So it really impacts your blood sugar. So when your blood sugar is higher, your pancreas are producing excess insulin. And when you have excess insulin floating in your system, it can really lead to fat storage as well. And, you know, having excess cortisol is like influencing your blood insulin, your blood sugar. And then that just becomes a nice little fat storage, the weight gain, especially around the abdomen, which is so common for women.

And so that, one way how cortisol can influence the weight gain part and that’s why until we figure it’s easier said than done, learn to de-stress or not even de-stress, manage our stress better so we’re not in a constant state of fight or flight, it’ll be really hard to lose the weight. And it’s not really a thyroid. That’s why at that point it’s really working on your adrenals, on your cortisol and managing that output and your blood sugar that can influence your weight.

And definitely as we get into the perimenopause, menopausal stage, there’s a lot more, you know, our hormones are changing. Again, it’s an orchestra. They all work together. And estrogen can also play a huge role in those hormonal changes. So it’s like a perfect storm, you know, you hit 40 and the weight gain start, you know, the way to be able to manage stress. Earlier, we were able to handle it better, and now we feel like we’re always anxious or overwhelmed. It’s not your fault. It’s not you. Your body is just communicating. It just needs a way to, maybe our approach needs to change. And yeah, so that’s, I’ll pause there.

Katie: Yeah, so many great points. I was taking notes for any of you guys on the go in the show notes at wellnessmama.com. And I know that you have many resources, including on your Instagram, where you talk about a lot of these things often. So I’ll make sure that is linked as well.

And also what strikes me is that, of course we’re seeing across the board a rise in most chronic conditions, including non-alcoholic fatty liver that you touched on. And of course, thyroid issues and autoimmunity. I believe the most recent statistic I saw was that 93 point something percent of Americans are not metabolically healthy. So this is certainly a widespread issue. And it, to me, seems very obvious that our modern lifestyle, unfortunately, does not sort of naturally create the conditions for better health.

But we do have a lot within our control that we can use and many ways to sort of, I feel like, mimic nature, return to nature, learn from nature and improve our health naturally. And I know that there’s also, of course, the individualized and personalized aspect to that. And that working with someone like you is really helpful for that part.

But until we get to that point, what are some of the things, kind of maybe the 80-20 that you would propose that are sort of like the most universally supportive and that kind of like help undo some of these things we’re facing in our modern environment?

Divya: Oh, yeah, that’s such a great question. And, you know, I have four pillars, you know, and as I said, the body is interconnected. There’s never just one thing, or I wish there was a magic pill we could bottle it up and sell it and be billionaires on our own island, but no, there isn’t.

So it’s, you know, I go back to nutrition, exercise, mental health, and sleep. Those are the four pillars. And I think for everyone to really assess for themselves where do they need the most support, and you don’t have to do all of it together and get overwhelmed. If we talk about baby steps, you know, taking baby steps, maybe we start with nutrition first. That’s where I started. How can you start cleaning up your diet and, you know, eating real whole foods. Getting away from packaged food as much as possible.

And that’s also a byproduct of a busy and modern lifestyle. Nobody has time to cook. Everyone is looking for a quick, you know, quick meal to be done. So really focusing on the diet, you know, there are easy ways to make think simple. I keep my meals simple. It takes 30 minutes or less to make it. It’s nothing fancy. But just eating real whole foods, removing some of the trigger foods for you, just figuring that out, but removing gluten and sugar, and dairy. And you know, seed oils. And again, 80-20 rule. We don’t have to be perfect all the time. I’m definitely not. But as much, you know, focusing, I think that is one place to start.

And also, again, I know how expensive things are getting. I’m very mindful of that. But if you can buy as much as organic or following the environmental working group dirty dozen. Because we also want to reduce the toxin exposure that we get through, our foods these days are sprayed with Roundup and weed killer and whatnot, because again, the liver will also have to process the toxins we take in through our food. So in a way, you are reducing that exposure if we can focus on, as you know the organic food so that’s one.

Number two is exercise is so important and you don’t have to kill it in the gym or go to a CrossFit gym for an hour every day. It could be just 15-20 minutes of getting some high intensity workout in, going for walks you know, if you love group classes, whether it’s Pilates. It’s finding a routine and getting some movement in because you will be influencing your gut microbiome as well. They love exercise, they love movement, we are supposed to be moving.

We live a very sedentary lifestyle, even though I work from home and sometimes I just felt I haven’t really left my desk because most of the meetings are happening over Zoom meetings but getting out and moving is important. So just those basic, you know, we have like, you know, getting 10,000 steps. Okay, let’s start with like 5,000 or 6,000 steps. Sometimes my watch is like, you’ve got 2,000 steps today. I’m like, ah, that’s so bad. So getting movement in is important. Sweating is important. So if you can’t exercise for whatever reason, finding a sauna, going to an infrared sauna, just getting some, getting some you know, gunk out of your body is key.

Number three is, you know, sleep is really important. And you can’t be healthy if you don’t sleep well. I know you have six kids. And, you know, when they were kids, we were so laser focused on how much they’re sleeping, how well they are sleeping. I don’t know, somewhere along the line, once we grow up, we sort of take it for granted, oh, I’ll sleep when I die. Or, you know, the busy culture, who needs to sleep. That doesn’t get me so mad. We need to sleep. If you want to detox, your body can detox only when we sleep, certain organs, because it’s working so hard for us.

So figuring out a good sleep routine. Sleep hygiene, cleaning up. And sometimes you may need help and support in that department and figuring that out. That’s how I go step by step. But sleep, getting a good eight hours of sleep. You know it doesn’t have to, you know, there are days and some events that happened, but really protecting that.

And finally, mental health is feeling with whatever one needs to manage their stress and really unraveling, I think that’s important. You know, whether it’s the gratitude practice we were talking about, finding a moment of gratitude in your day. I know I had a gratitude journal of for a while and you know when I was going through a lot just to okay I need to list three things that I’m grateful for today. Whether it’s doing therapy, whether it’s meditation I know meditation may or may not be for everyone, breath work, just taking a moment, just getting into the parasympathetic state as many times during the day is important to again calm your adrenals and your hormones.

So those are places people can start and it’s not hard and it doesn’t have to be overnight. Take baby steps. I would just urge everyone to start.

Katie: I love that. And I love that you start with sort of like universally supported foundational things that like you talked about, don’t have to be expensive. And in many cases don’t have to cost anything at all. They’re not complicated. They’re not like a huge supplement regimen. These are like truly important foundational things that I’ve come slowly to learn really truly are the most important. And even if it’s those little habits of working in a walk where you’re getting movement and sunlight and fresh air outside, or even if you are stuck in an office and you can just do some kind of like mild exercise in there or bounce on a rebounder, like there’s always little baby steps we can do.

And I love that so much of your work is really helping people to adopt those baby steps and to continue that journey in a way that’s not stressful and that feels supported. So on that note, where can people find you and work with you and keep learning from you?

Divya: Oh, yeah. People can find me on my website, divyagupta.net. I’m most active on Instagram. So that’s @_divgupta. So that’s where people can find me along with Facebook, the usual social channels or LinkedIn. I know you have those links in the show notes. So that’s how people can reach out. DM, send me an email. I would love to chat and help and if I can guide you in the process. But I love sharing and teaching, that’s one of my, it brings me joy.

Katie: Amazing. Well, yes, absolutely all of those links will be in the show notes for anybody listening on the go. And I’m personally so glad that our paths got to cross through our mutual friend Warren and that we got to have this conversation. You are definitely an inspiration. I’m so grateful for your time. Thank you so much for everything you’ve shared.

Divya: No, thank you so much, Katie, for everything you have done. I’m going to be having my second one in March and I’ve been going through your website and like all the different products because I forgot in my first one that was nine years ago. Things have changed. So I’m like trying. So thank you for everything that you do and all the information you’ve been putting out. And helping mamas around the world.

Katie: Oh, thank you. And thanks as always to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama Podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.