823: You Are What You Breathe: The Biggest Unknown Health Factor With Mike Feldstein

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Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And I’m so excited to be here with a dear friend and one of my favorite people to talk all things air quality. And in this episode, we especially talk about you are what you breathe and how this is the most untalked about health factor because we breathe so much more than we even drink water or eat food. Yet we often think so much more about what we eat and drink than the quality of our air. And today’s guest gets to dive deep into everything from CO2 levels in our air to nanoparticulate and so much more. Mike Feldstein is the founder of Jaspr, and he’s an air quality expert who I have really enjoyed getting to know. He leveraged his experience in wildfire restoration and air quality consulting to start Jaspr, which is a premium air purifier company that really does a lot of innovative stuff in air science and technology. And as you’ll hear in this episode, his mission is to improve air quality and boost human health. And he gives a lot of practical tips beyond even getting an air filter on ways we can make the air quality in our homes much healthier. I very much enjoy learning from Mike. So let’s join him now. Mike, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Mike: Thanks for having me.

Katie: We got to meet in person at an event pretty recently, and I was so excited to have you on this podcast to go deep on a topic that you and I got to nerd out a little bit on, and I feel like does not get enough talk time. And you can explain this much better than I can. But for years, I’ve thought, you know, we breathe much more than we drink water, much more than we eat food, but we’re also concerned with what we eat. And I feel like it’s time for the conversation to also include a lot more about what we breathe, since we do that literally in our sleep all day, every day. And you are such an amazing resource on this. So can you kind of start broad and give us an overview, kind of triage overview of the importance of air and what we’re breathing, even compared to what we’re drinking and eating?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Nerding out is a good word for it. And I got my little CO2 monitor with me, even just monitoring the levels in this room. And I’ll keep you posted if it gets high because yeah, there can be some fun stuff that comes from keeping an eye on that. So yeah, broadly. Air, water, food. So the good thing about talking to your audience is they’re obviously already very health conscious and health aware. And everything or a lot of what you already know about how food impacts you, like the stress from food or the stress from polluted water, it’s the same thing with air. It’s not like a whole new category that people need to learn about. It’s just another stressor that we are inputting that most of us aren’t aware of.

Air is the first thing we do when we’re born. It’s the first thing we do when we’re born is we take our first breath. The last thing we do when we die is take our last breath. And I feel like because of this, and like you said, we do it in our sleep. We don’t eat in our sleep. We don’t drink in our sleep. If we’re hungry, we go get food. If we’re thirsty, we go get water. But our body literally breathes for us. It’s the only thing that we can do consciously and unconsciously.

And I think for that reason, and because humans are so good at adapting, we just take air for granted. And we forget that we live in air. So we just kind of don’t really think about it too much. And yeah, a couple big key numbers for people to think about is we breathe, so we eat, let’s say, two pounds of food a day, sometimes three. We drink two or three liters a day, maybe like a gallon, a good water drinker, maybe a little more. But we breathe 11,000 to 15,000 liters of air per day, which is almost 20,000 breaths each day. And babies actually breathe as much as 60,000 times each day.

We can go three weeks without food, three days without water, and only three minutes without air. So it’s like the most essential thing that keeps us alive. And I think because of how essential it is and how it’s literally something we do subconscious, we just kind of neglect it. And I’m sort of on a mission to increase air awareness and air consciousness so people can make better choices regarding the air that they breathe. Because the outdoor air is outside of our control, except for choosing when we go outside, what activities we do outside, where we live. And our indoor air is very much within our control.

Katie: Okay, so for anybody who’s on video, you showed us your CO2 monitor. And I will say at the event we were at, you had this as well. And you started opening windows during the event because of the CO2 level. And you’re the first person I’ve ever met who carries a CO2 monitor. Can you explain? I would guess most people have never even considered the CO2 level in their environment. And I know for us, this led to a whole conversation about sauna ventilation and how often fatigue in saunas might not be from the heat but from the CO2. So I’ve been making changes to my sauna. But can you walk us through why you carry this monitor and what to know about the different CO2 levels?

Mike: Yeah, so I’ll start off by saying the outdoor CO2 is around 400. It’s pretty much 400. In some climates, like a higher altitude, I’ve seen it around 420. The lowest I’ve ever seen was 385. That was like in the rainforest on Vancouver Island. But broadly, outdoor air is 400. Indoor air is usually in that 600 to 800 level. However, and when it gets over 1,000, that’s when we start to have brain fog, fatigue, decrease of performance. And some environments can get way up there, 12, 13, 1,400, 2,000.

And CO2 is carbon dioxide. Whenever you hear about carbon in the atmosphere, like that’s what they’re talking about. We also have carbon dioxide in our indoor environments. And I carry the CO2 sensor with me all the time. I usually keep it in my bag, keep it in my car. And I now have a fairly calibrated biosensor. My lungs and my nose, I’m very calibrated. So I can pretty much tell what the CO2 is within 100, almost anywhere I am. I often, I use the CO2 to A, keep my own sensors calibrated, and B, to show other people.

So like there’s a coffee shop in Austin that I go to all the time. And I could just feel the CO2 levels so high. It’s stuffy. It has poor ventilation. And I’m always doing the same thing you saw me do. I’m cracking doors and windows and holding the door open for a few minutes to let the purge the CO2 and bring in fresh air. The cool thing is once I started to show the baristas the CO2 and describe the sensation, tell them to come outside and take a breath of fresh air. Now I can tell they’re regulating the doors and windows themselves just like the girls were at the event. Once you kind of show someone the CO2 on a screen and you can connect it to how you feel, people do a much better job at regulating it themselves.

So there’s been infinite studies on CO2 and sleep quality, performance of whether it’s athletic performance, grandmasters in chess, playing game theory, like basically playing a perfect chess game. The quality of their moves decreases. They’ve done studies with SAT scores. SAT scores decrease as the CO2 and air quality gets worse. So it’s a really big deal for our recovery and for our performance. And I had a situation when I was living in British Columbia where our CO2 was getting over 3000 every night and I was sleeping 10 hours a night and waking up exhausted. And that’s because we didn’t have a good ventilation system. So every night and I was breathing out of my mouth at the time. This was before I discovered nose breathing and things like that. And our CO2 was going from 650 to 3300 at night. And the cool thing about it was all I had to do was leave our bathroom fan on in the bathroom connected to the bedroom and the CO2 stayed under 900. And this is nice because so many things with health require drastic changes. But this was just a little subtle one button on maybe a 10 cent a day energy reduction in efficiency. And all of a sudden I was sleeping eight hours a day and waking up rested. So it’s a very big deal. It’s something that air purifiers cannot fix. The only way to deal with CO2 is ventilation.

Katie: And probably one of the many reasons a lot of us feel better the more time we spend outside. But as you were explaining that, I was thinking back to being like in high school, for instance, and how it seemed like everybody got tired toward the end of the day and the whole class was yawning. And we always assumed it was because we ate lunch or just we got up early. But in hindsight, it really very much could have been all those people in an enclosed environment all day without ventilation that by two or three in the afternoon, the CO2 was likely pretty high in that environment and not that…

Mike: It’s not like they purged it at the end of the day. It’s not like they were most schools don’t have doors and most office. Most buildings don’t have doors and windows that open for energy efficiency standpoint. Hotels, that’s why usually the rare hotel has like a balcony or window that opens like two inches. That’s how they can control the costs of heating and cooling the building. Schools are the same and CO2 levels can stay high for a few days. So it’s not like, I bet you Monday morning is the best lowest CO2 levels of the whole week. And it’s not like they’re opening the doors and the windows to purge the CO2 at the end of the day. Like no chance they’re doing that. So yeah, that’s a big, big, big deal. And usually office buildings now are, they’re set based on expected occupancy of rooms. But often a bunch of people go into one room or classrooms that were designed for 18 kids now have 30 kids as the school gets busier and busier and they’re not upgrading their ventilation or changing their fresh air intake. So yeah, it’s a big deal for fatigue.

I’ve seen the CO2 in cars. When I keep this in a car and you put the recirculate button on, I’ve seen it jump to 3,500 plus in minutes. So often when someone’s on a road trip and they keep opening the window, they’re like, I need to get cold air, get air. And that’s not the problem. It’s because your carbon dioxide is so high, you’re literally choking yourself to death. So that’s why I always drive with either my sunroof cracked, not open, but on that ventilation mode where it just angles a little bit. That’s a really great way to dump the CO2.

Katie: And also a great way to get full spectrum light in the car because even just the windows in car remove a lot of the beneficial spectrum of light as well. So that’s a tip I’ve been doing since meeting you. But what about home environments? Because I know we talked about a lot of homes are not really designed actually for optimal things like proper CO2 levels and proper oxygen levels. And they’re like a lot more sealed than they used to be. Is there anything, it sounds like turning on a vent fan in a bathroom can be helpful or opening windows, but what are some things people can do in a home environment?

Mike: Homes aren’t really built for people in general. Homes were really built, if you think about the order of a, most people live in a condo apartment or a subdivision home. 99% of people live in a pretty cookie cutter-ish style home. And even most custom home builders aren’t really air aware and aren’t really considering this.

So if you think about a house, you make the biggest purchase of your life. You have a home inspector come out. They spend half a day or a day. You pay them $500 to $800. I got licensed as the home inspector to see what that process was like. We literally get people to sign off that we’re not looking for anything environmental, not looking for mold, asbestos, lead, bacteria, air quality at all. So you hire the home inspector. It’s literally a condition of the purchase to come out and look for, is the water heater old? Is there a crack in the foundation? Is the shingles lifted in the roof? When will I have to repaint the home? They’re looking for something that’s going to put a hole in your pocket. No part of the home inspection process is looking if this house is even a healthy place for you to live in.

So when a home is being built, the first order of operations for a developer or builder is cost. They’re trying to make a house that is cheap and is cost effective to build that they can build as quickly as possible. The second order of consequence is to keep the elements out. So they want the house to last 30 years or so. So they’re trying to find a way to keep the wind out, the rain out, keep storms from getting in. So basically protect the structure itself. So it’s designed to be a cost effective structure to keep the elements out.

However, it also is designed to keep the elements in. So not only do you have indoor pollution that comes in the house, but you have all the outdoor pollutants that come in and they get trapped inside. There’s no part of that equation where a developer or a builder is sitting there and saying, how do we make this home optimal for the humans that are going to live in it? Good lighting, good air, good water. It’s not part of the calculation.

So broadly, homes aren’t really designed for people. They’re designed to be these cost effective structures. And then they’re designed to be energy efficient. So since the 70s, there’s been a big push towards energy efficiency. And that means keeping the cool in in the summer and keeping the warm in in the winter. But by keeping that in, you’re also keeping in the mold, the pollen, the cooking toxins, the pet dander, the skin cells, the hair cells, the insect parts, the VOCs, the off gassing, the toxins. So yeah, energy efficiency is at odds with environmental health. And that is a big problem. So like something that I get really excited about is just a raising the healthy home air awareness stuff for developers, architects, builders, because that would be the best way is if, if we start top down and bottom up. So people need to demand a better home. If you went to a house to find a house for sale and it said cancer here on the front door, you probably wouldn’t buy it. It doesn’t have that sign, but, so if we can educate builders, architects, contractors on better ways to build it and educate consumers and the head of families and households to demand a better, healthier home, I think we can make a huge difference.

Katie: Yeah, I fully agree. And I hope those changes are coming. I’m curious if things like house plants, for instance, make any measurable difference in CO2 levels.

Mike: And the one thing I forgot to mention, I was in a sauna last week in Denver and we brought this in and the CO2 level hit 5000. And it was going up from there. So yes, just to close the loop on the sauna thing, a huge reason why people need to keep leaving the sauna is not the heat. If you ever try a sauna where you can, there’s those like body saunas, those little tents where the head is out and your body temperature is still going up a lot. You can stay in there for a way, way longer time. So yes, CO2 levels in saunas are a huge deal. And it’s nice because if you can stay in there longer, you can just get a much better detoxifying experience by staying in there for longer.

To circle back to now houseplants. Plants are good. I like plants. However, as far as air quality is concerned, they don’t do much. It’s because they’re just too small. I believe that they do something from an ambience, feng shui. You know, I think there’s, and I’m staring at a plant right now, I think that they have intangible benefits. But if you put a plant in a room and we have monitors and sensors, we see no difference from the levels of air quality in a home. It’s like a drop in a bucket. It’s like putting a space heater in your living room and trying to heat your house with a space heater or trying to heat your swimming pool with a kettle. It does clean the air, but you would literally need like trees in your home to make a difference. It’s just not enough plant. And if you had enough plants to be helpful, at that point, you’d now have pests and humidity issues and all kinds of new issues. And that’s because our homes are built too tight. The best thing would be for a house that has good ventilation, you’re allowing the trees and the outdoor nature to come inside more. Which is like by making your house more a part of the outdoor environment, as opposed to trapping yourselves in a little Tupperware airtight container and putting plants inside it. But yeah, unfortunately, plants have not been shown to like move the needle very much in a small environment.

Katie: Got it. Okay. Well, I’ll keep my houseplant addiction for psychological benefits only then.

Mike: Like pets.

Katie: Exactly. And I have a lot of them. I think for context as well, I would love for you to tell a little bit of your story and how you became so knowledgeable about air quality. And then we’re going to get to go in a lot of specific directions related to the things in the air.

Mike: Sure. So, yeah, my background was in flood, fire, hurricane, mold remediation, asbestos abatement. So I mostly, you know, there’s some companies they focus on, like if there’s a basement leak or a house fire and, you know, you call the insurance company and they send a restoration company out. We only did disasters and catastrophes. So Hurricane Harvey, you know, the big hurricanes in Florida, catastrophic wildfires in California, British Columbia, Alberta. So we weren’t your like regular mold leak company. We only dealt with like disasters, huge, huge, huge catastrophes, which was like a month of doing catastrophes is like five years.

Most mold companies are dealing with a leak under the kitchen sink or the bathroom. We’re dealing with basements that were filled to the top with water, like into the main floor kind of situation. So that’s what we were doing. We were doing really big disaster stuff, smoke cleanup, things like that. And after these disasters, a couple of things happened. Number one is we would always test the air quality before, during, and after so a family could reoccupy their home. And unfortunately, when we would, what was considered a safe habitable level, it’s not that good. It was almost like when you go and get your blood work from the regular doctor and they’re like, we’ll call you if you’re dying. But no one was looking for optimal. They were just looking for not dying right now. And the standards for air quality and mold are very, very similar.

So when you would look at like what an insurance company considers like a safe home to reoccupy and normal levels of air quality, I’m like, these are not good, not they’re okay, but they’re not great by any stretch. So that was eye opening. But the big eye-opening moment that led me to get into Jaspr, so like, because of the disaster stuff we were doing, we also were air quality consultants because we would always monitor the air and the humidity and everything. So Fort McMurray, Alberta, was the biggest wildfire in Canadian history where 100,000 people had to be evacuated for one month to several months. And I got to see firsthand how sick people are in these environments after natural disasters. I got to know a lot of doctors and pediatricians and pulmonologists. And every symptom you could think of gets exasperated after floods and especially fires. So anybody who is asthmatic, anybody who has allergies, anyone who has autoimmune conditions, the symptoms are like off the chart. Doctors are slammed. And there’s typically a pretty big effort. I don’t know if it comes from insurance companies or what, but to just call it a coincidence. When you talk to doctors and they’re like 100 times busier than a normal week or a normal month right after disasters, it doesn’t seem like a coincidence to me.

So we would want one big story is like the big moment that when I think back to why I got on this journey, it’s front of mind is there was a family in Fort McMurray, Alberta, huge wildfire. We restored their house, cleaned everything up. And after smoke damage, we would throw out, rip out their carpets, throw out every carpet, bedding, repaint the house, seal it in, change their insulation, clean their clothes multiple times, test their clothes. If their clothes was not back to safe levels, we’d have to dispose of all their clothes, basically take it down to the studs and rebuild these homes. And the situation was a month, a week after we were done and we tested the air, we got a call. Baby was back in the hospital. Baby was in the hospital. We’re like, I don’t get it. We went back to the house. We tested the air and the air quality was indeed quite toxic. What happened was after the air was cleaned inside the home, well, where does the air come from? Outside. So after a wildfire, the air quality could stay contaminated for several months. It gets in the soil. It gets in the water. It sits in the valley and it’s just stewing there. So even though we cleaned the house, detox the house, the outdoor air came right back in.

So we called the insurance company back. We said, hey, Tanya, your customer’s home has been, it’s recontaminated. What should we do? And they basically said like, so sad, too bad. The homeowner signed off. We’re sending you a check. Like we don’t clean twice. I’m like, what do you mean? Like, what are we supposed to do? This baby’s sick and can’t be at the house. And they’re like, tell them to open another claim. Like this, not good.

So we are in a weird pickle because it’s like we did our job, but we didn’t solve the problem. And we got paid quite well for this insurance type work. So what we decided to do was bring our air scrubbing machines back to the house. And we ended up leaving them there for a few months. And this kept happening. And when I say air scrubber, imagine an air purifier that looks somewhere between a photocopier and a subwoofer. A big, large, loud industrial machine. Huge. So they’re very good at cleaning the air, but they’re hideous and they’re loud. So they’re fine on a construction site, but they’re not compatible with everyday life.

And this kept happening. So I figured, okay, we can’t like we, so we were leaving our industrial equipment at everyone’s house. And I’m like, ah, can we just go to Home Depot, Best Buy, buy like five or six air purifiers, give it to them as a gift. That would be a much more elegant solution than leaving these industrial machines there. So we did that. We went to Home Depot, Best Buy. I’m not going to name any particular brands, but we bought all the normal household brands that you’re used to seeing. We checked, and within a few hours, the air quality was back to contaminated, even with these air purifiers running. And they really did nothing.

So the way I try to describe most small air purifiers is it’s kind of like trying to heat a bathtub with a kettle. They’re just way too small. So I realized when we were doing this disaster cleanup, we do this really good work, but it wasn’t moving the needle for people. I called it sad money because we were making all this money, we were cleaning the home, and then it was just recontaminated. And these little air purifiers were, you know, I say bathtub and a kettle because a kettle is awesome at heating water for tea. But if you try to heat your bathtub with a kettle, the bathtub will continuously cool down faster than you can keep getting that kettle heated up. It’s just too small of a solution.

So I realized we need an air purifier that’s inspired by these commercial industrial air scrubbers. But it had to be quiet and it had to be beautiful because I remember one lady named Angela, I went back to her house. She had a sick child and this big air scrubber and I went to her house and it was unplugged. I’m like, Angela, what are you doing? Why did you unplug the air scrubber? And she’s like, it was just so loud and so ugly. Like we couldn’t sleep. She’s like, it fixed the air problem, but it created a noise problem. Noise pollution is also a stressor.

So I realized the only way people would actually use a solution is if it was silent, effective, smart. And originally Jaspr was designed specifically, Jaspr is the name of the air purifier that I created, and it was designed specifically for wildfire smoke. I never thought that we’d be focusing on pet allergies and sleep and autoimmune stuff and seasonal allergies. We really designed this thing for California toxic wildfire smoke and had to make it beautiful and seamlessly integrate into people’s life. And it just so happened that we ended up where we are today. But yeah, it was all the wildfire stuff that gave me the insight to create a product like this.

Katie: That’s such a cool story. And admittedly, if it can handle wildfire smoke, it probably has an easier time of the things in most of our houses that hopefully is not wildfire smoke very often or ever. But I love that because I noticed that difference immediately when I got Jasprs in my home is they look great. And in fact, I actually get compliments on them. People ask what they are because they look cool, but they are so quiet. And then I love that you can see on there the level. Can you explain what that level is? There’s a number on it. What does that number mean?

Mike: So that number is PM 2.5, which is the particles that are small enough to enter the lung stream, our bloodstream and our lungs. It’s also just the best technology that we have available to control the fan speed. So the idea is you want it to be silent almost all the time. But then if you’re cooking or cleaning or using, and a lot of people actually use it has like a toxic detector. So if you use like Lysol or Clorox anywhere in your house, Jaspr is going to go crazy. But if you use like water and like vinegar, Jaspr won’t turn up at all. So a lot of people actually use it as like a toxin detector. Same thing with hairspray, shampoos, window cleaners, it will detect high levels of VOC in particulate. It’ll also detect wildfire smoke, high levels of pollen. So it’s designed to be quiet all the time and look good. But yeah, so that number on the screen is PM 2.5.

Katie: Got it. And we’re going to record a second episode. So you guys stay tuned for that one because I want to go deep on all the different things that can be in indoor air. But I feel like that is such a helpful number. And I’ve noticed that too. Like when I use Branch Basics or natural cleaners, it doesn’t react at all. But if even people come in with like strong smelling fragrances or we get any smoke in the kitchen when we’re cooking, it like immediately responds and starts to get higher or like even personal care products. I’m usually really clean with those, but I’ve noticed a couple of them make the Jaspr react. And so now I’m more cautious about those even though they claim to be natural. So I’ve found that fascinating. It’s like a data point in your house and my kids are fascinated by it as well. And like I said, we’re going to get to go even deeper in our next episode on all the things that are in our indoor air. But I believe you also have a special offer right now for this week for people who are listening. So can you touch on that briefly? And I’ll of course make sure there’s a link in the show notes.

Mike: And I’ll make sure that on the second episode, we give a bunch of helpful tips that people can do for free right away that doesn’t involve buying any products at all to start making a huge difference immediately. I think the most important thing is that people actually, a lot of the stuff with air is free and immediate. It’s just little tips and tricks. So I’ll make sure in the second episode we talk about all the stuff that’s in your air and then easy little wins that people can get like right away.

So, yeah, the code, I think the code is wellnessmama. And it’ll be $200 off starting today. So the day that this episode drops, it’ll be $200 off. And then after one week, the code will still be wellnessmama and it will drop down to $100 discount. And the reason that we do this is we don’t advertise on Google. We don’t advertise on Facebook. We’re not in Best Buy. We’re not in Home Depot. We’re not in big box stores. We’re not in Amazon. We want a really direct relationship with our customers where we’re able to help them and educate them and provide excellent service and not just like run a bunch of ads convincing people to buy stuff without having that more intimate relationship. So connecting with audiences like yours who really understand the benefits of clean air and then your most loyal listeners who listen within the first week, we’ll give them an extra special discount and then we’ll keep the code running after. So to reiterate, it’ll be $200 off starting today, the day that the episode comes out, and then seven days after today, it will be $100 off.

Katie: Awesome. I appreciate you doing that for the listeners. And like I said, I’ve noticed a difference from Jaspr and love having them in my home. So I’ll put that link in the show notes along with the code. And I very much look forward to our next conversation where we get to really go deep on things we can do for our indoor air quality. But Mike, it’s always such a pleasure. Thank you so much for the time.

Mike: Thanks for having me. Excited to do round two.

Katie: And thank you for listening. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.