834: From Deep Depression to Finding Joy With Michael Griswold

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com, and I’m here today with a personal friend of mine who I met recently and who has already become a very close friend. And he shares his incredible and heartbreaking journey from deep depression to finding joy, including his incredibly heartbreaking story and all of the good that has come out of it. And I will warn you that in this episode, we touch on some topics that are somewhat considered still a little bit taboo, but that have been personally helpful for me. And I’ve gotten a lot of messages and questions directly from people about these, including from some of you guys. And I wanted to have a forum to talk about them a little bit more publicly. We’re talking about things that are in clinical trials for their profound ability to help with things like depression and anxiety and overwhelm but are still not easily available or used openly in a lot of places. And so I wanted to have a conversation for informational purposes about these things and the ways that they can be profoundly helpful. I think that you will definitely go on an emotional journey with Michael’s story. And I hope that you will approach this conversation with a little bit of openness to the potential for these things, even if it’s not something that you personally are aligned with. So without further ado, let’s jump into this story of, finding joy from deep depression with Michael Griswold. Michael, welcome. Thanks so much for being here.

Michael: Thanks, Katie. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you about this ever since we met in Austin. So this is very exciting for me.

Katie: I have been looking forward to it as well. And I will say, I often at business events ask people questions about how they got into the line of work that they do. And I would say your response, the story you told me in response to that question probably was the most heartfelt and surprising answer I have ever gotten to that question. Because we were talking about work stuff and what led you into the line of work you now do, which is helping so many people. So if you’re willing, I know it’s a vulnerable story, but can you share what you told me when I asked you how you got into what you’re doing currently?

Michael: Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess the first thing to know is that I’ve always been this idealistic romantic and believed in happily ever after and thought that that was like the greatest thing to work towards. And when I was a young guy, about 24, I met this girl and fell in love with her at first sight, just like that. She was standing at the top of the stairs. I remember what she was wearing. And we were both a part of this church. And for the next two and a half years, you know, I told her parents, hey, look, you know, I don’t know how to tell you this, but I’m in love with your daughter. And they said, well, you’re going to have to wait for a while. You know, it was a very strict church that kind of monitored the dating and whatnot.

So for two and a half years, they forbade me from even telling her that I was interested. So I spent time courting their family and, you know, doing that sort of thing. And after two and a half years, her dad came to me and said, hey, what would you say if we said, hey, you could start courting, ask Libby to start courting? And I was over the moon, of course. Set up this whole thing in the woods. It was right around Christmas time. And there was this very romantic thing. And it turns out she was in love with me the whole time as well. And so we had this wonderful, like fairy tale story.

A few months later, I proposed to her at the top of the Empire State Building because Sleepless in Seattle was one of her favorite movies. And everything was going great. We got married in front of 500 people. A few months later, she called me at work to let me know that we were going to have a baby. You know, at this point, I feel like I’m like, I’m all aces, man. Like I grew up this white trash, like neighborhood with a mom who really didn’t have any idea what was going on and was out to lunch on antidepressants and all sorts of other pills. And one of the reasons I have so much love and respect for you, Katie, is like the way that you are a mom is so impressive to me. And I sometimes feel like a little kid when I’m around you think, God, what, how lucky to have a mom like this. But you know, to go from being in that situation where, you know, I didn’t know what the hell was going on as a kid to now I’ve found this woman who is beautiful and loves me. And, you know, I’m starting my own family.

And then on the night before our first anniversary, as we were driving to celebrate, I fell asleep behind the wheel. And I woke up just before impact. Just enough time to see what was happening, but too late to do anything about it. And then when I came to consciousness in the hospital, there was a clergyman by my bed. And I said, hey, man, where’s my wife? And he said, man, we only brought back one, your body from the accident.

And so, what a whirlwind. You know, I spent this, like, at this point, it was the last five years of my life. And I know this is unhealthy, you know, and I know that people that write books about attachment would tell me that I had some, like, neuroses and all this. Because I definitely, like, this was my life. Like, this woman loving her was, like, the whole goal of my life. And it did end up being unhealthy because that spiraled into a real, real tragedy. Interestingly, and I hope we’ll touch on this at some point, but interestingly, immediately after she died, I had this sensation. I might even call it a premonition, but it was something that was so audacious that I couldn’t possibly say it out loud to anyone. Because the thing that really messed with my head was what does everybody else think? You know, as I was trying to get myself together and trying to figure out how to get through life, all I could think of echoing in my head is everybody knows it’s your fault. And man, this thing of what do other people think, it just nearly did me in.

And, you know, I’m sure that people who are listening have had their own stories of significant trouble where no matter what you do, you just can’t get this thought out of your head. And I tried everything. You know, I’m a very intense person. So, you know. If one or two is good, then 60 or 70 is better is my motto. So I tried everything I could, all the yoga, all the meditation, all the massage, all the weird. The weirder, the better. And yet nothing worked.

And I was just about to take the Robin Williams way up the world when I read an article about super doses of LSD. Now, you won’t even believe the story, but this girl was 15 years old. And she was so manic depressive that when she was manic, it would take like three or four grown men to wrestle her to the ground. And when she was depressed, her dad, she lived with her dad, her dad had to remove everything out of the house to prevent her from hurting herself because he was so afraid that she was going to end it. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, you’re a mom. Imagine this dad, every night he’s going to bed, he’s wondering, dude, am I going to see my daughter in the morning? And at his wit’s end, right, he’s tried everything he hears from the doctor, hey, look, I’ve heard that superdoses of LSD and psychedelics can really bring people out of something like that.

Well, desperate, he tried it and gave his daughter so much LSD that she ended up in a coma for three days. Of course, he’s freaking out. But when she came out of the coma, she said three words that drastically altered the direction of my life. She said, Dad, it’s over. Man, let me tell you, I knew exactly what she meant. I knew exactly what she meant by those three words. Look, the constant being chased down by something I can’t even, I don’t even know what it is that won’t leave me alone. And I’ve always got to be running from it. I didn’t know what that felt like, but man, I had imagined what it would feel like if it was possible.

So I called a friend, hey, will you send me some LSD? And I took as much as I could without hoping to put myself in a coma. And when I did, the experience I had made everything make sense. Here’s what I mean. I had spent so many years, Katie, feeling guilty and certain that I deserved to feel guilty. And no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t argue my way out of it. No argument that I said or and no encouragement that anybody else said, no matter how heartfelt, could ever dig me out of this grave of guilt. Like, I was driving full stop. There’s no…

And this is the thing about psychedelics that makes them such a powerful tool for people, especially this day and age when there’s so much confusion. And we’ve got so many thoughts that drive us nuts. Here’s what that trip did for me. It made me realize in a way that I could never have articulated before. And it’s going to sound so simple. It’s going to sound so simple to you. And that’s the beauty of the truth. You always know the truth because it’s simple. And sometimes it’s so hard for us to see it. I think it’ll make sense why it was hard for me to see it. I realized during that LSD trip, the thing that made Libby’s death a tragedy was the same thing that made it beautiful. And that was that I loved that woman. I didn’t feel bad because I was guilty. I felt bad because I loved her so much. Of course you feel bad, man. Of course. And it helped me to understand the distinction between sadness and grief and guilt. And it was this rebirth in a way where instead of being so terribly terrified of what do other people think. Instead, I was free to live my life again.

Now, at this point, my life was pretty much in a shamble because I had spent the last 15 years barely hanging on but this gave me at least a place to start a place that said, hey I deserve to be alive and to enjoy life because and I’m sure there are people who can relate to this even if they haven’t gone through a tragedy of this nature, there are people who feel like man, I I gotta earn my keep around here. There’s something I got to do in order to make it like worth me being here. And I know that feeling. And look, I bet there are people who can relate to this. When I was going through it, when I was in the belly of the whale and uncertain that I was sure I was never going to make it. Sure. But I told myself, man, if by some small chance you ever do get out of this, I’m going to tell whoever will listen what worked for me. Because it don’t make no sense for a human being to feel like this.

And I remember the frustration of, you know, the self-help salesman who came along and would tell me you just got to be positive and you got to control your thoughts and you got to do all this. None of it worked. And the therapists who would try to talk me around in circles and they didn’t know what they were talking about. And then one time I got so desperate that I even tried taking some antidepressants and that didn’t do any good. And I just thought, man, where in the world can a person go when you need help, man.

So, after that, I thought, oh, okay. Well, I ended up talking to this, getting in touch with this guy who sold magic mushroom grow kits. Now, I, my experience was on LSD, but I started understanding that psilocybin is a lot like LSD and a lot less aggressive, right? LSD is like, whoa, it’s a big, big deal. But psilocybin has some of the same properties and same power without being so scary. So this guy started selling magic mushroom grow kits, and I started helping him with his marketing. And it turns out I was down in Costa Rica. I said, hey, man, why don’t we invite some people down who have been suffering from depression, anxiety, and PTSD for a while, and offer them what’s called a hero’s journey. And this is where you take a large dose of magic mushrooms and according to studies from Yale University and Johns Hopkins University and even the FDA, these doses of magic mushrooms can end depression even in a single dose. And so I said, hey, man, let’s see if they would want to come down. There’s this beautiful place to have this retreat. We give them a hero’s dose of magic mushrooms and see if that will help them be released from depression.

Well, you wouldn’t believe it. The guy that owned the company, he was in the midst of a very terrible, soon to be divorce. There had been some infidelity in his relationship. And his wife was just kind of losing it. I would be on the phone with him and hear her, you know, when somebody screams so high pitch that it makes your ears hurt. I could hear her in the background screaming at him like this. Well, he came down from the retreat and we had a couple of people. But the thing that happened the most powerful was to this guy. We got into a hero’s journey and it was as if his whole life got turned upside down. His, just to summarize, because it’d be way too much to explain, like in The Princess Bride. Let me explain. No, it’s too much. Let me sum up. The thing that, his marriage was just in total shambles. And after this hero’s journey, he goes back, works things out with his wife. They’re now living in Texas, traveling the world. And living a beautiful married life with their two kids, where it was really on the brink of completely falling apart.

So, after seeing that effect in my own life and in the life of somebody else close to us, I came in, there’s really something on here. And when I was on the beach in Costa Rica, one time I met this girl who put me in touch with the guy who could make magic mushrooms for microdosing. I called him up from Costa Rica. I was like, hey, man, I know you don’t know me, but I just talked to Judy. And I saw your product. How do you feel about me selling these online for people who suffer from depression, anxiety, and PTSD? You know, I told him my story, why it’s important to me. And he’s like, well, you know. It’s not really fully allow yet and I was like yeah don’t worry about that I’ll take all the risk put it all on me because if you’re going to tell me that getting something that grows out of the ground and giving it to somebody who is suffering, whose life they wonder if it’s worth living sometimes. If you’re going to tell me that that is against the law, I’m going to tell you that law don’t make no sense. Don’t make no sense. And there is a higher law that ought to be obeyed, and that is the law of a person’s well-being.

So I remembered that promise that I made to myself. Hey, man, if I ever make it out of here, I’m going to let people know. And the most incredible thing is it’s not like I had this idea. I didn’t think, oh, man, I’m going to go start a microdosing company. I was on the beach, Katie. I was on the beach getting mushrooms for this retreat and get introduced to this girl by complete happenstance, if you think that’s the way it works. And all of a sudden, this dream that I had to be able to help people through the very thing that I had suffered from falls right in my lap. What else could I do? How could I say no? Come on. So, did that answer your question?

Katie: Yeah, like I said, it is quite the story. And again, I know I’ve said this to you before, but I’m so sorry for your loss and also simultaneously so grateful for the beauty that you’ve turned that into. I have a dear friend who has been on this podcast as well, who says, you know, the beauty is in the contrast. And those of us who have experienced the deep pains of those emotions like you talked about are also, I feel like maybe have an increased capacity to feel what we identify as a positive emotion as well. And I think your story is such a beautiful example of that. And the very cliche, you know, turning pain into purpose. I feel like you’ve done that in a very dramatic way. And I can only imagine what the inside of that journey has felt like for you.

But I would guess so many people listening can resonate with so many of the things you just said, even if it’s as simple as understanding that feeling of needing to earn being loved or earn being worthy. I think that’s a very common human feeling that many of us experience and work through for many parts of our lives. And I know that also this topic we’re talking about is still, like you mentioned, a little bit taboo and a little difficult to navigate. And like you, I feel like if there’s something that’s helping people and that now we don’t just guess, we know this, it’s being clinically studied, it’s in the process of approval based on its ability to dramatically impact people, especially in extreme PTSD. They’re even testing it on people who have been through war and experienced extremely horrific things. And I think this is something that in 10 years is going to be a completely different conversation. But like you, I didn’t wait until that conversation was different to experience it. And I don’t want people to have to wait strictly because we’re still waiting on those aspects as well.

So even though I’m sure it’s been quite the journey for you, I’m really grateful that you’ve kind of put yourself out there to get these in the hands of people who can really benefit from them. And you touched on it a little bit, but there is, like I said, a lot of actual data that backs up the profound benefits of these literal plants or these organisms that come from the earth that grow naturally. Can you go a little bit deeper on the science? Because I know I came from a very religious background. I know you did as well. These were things that for the early part of my life were considered extremely taboo and that I didn’t even consider in my paradigm because of the way I was raised and have come to have a much different relationship with and understanding of both from the research side and the personal experience side. But can you just speak to what we’re starting to understand through science about the mechanisms of why these can have such a profound impact?

Michael: Yeah, yeah, it’s really fascinating, actually, that, you know, for thousands of years, the people on the outskirts, the mystics, the medicine men, they’ve said all these things. And, you know, of course, all the cool people are like, those guys are weirdos, don’t listen to them. And for a long time, the church was very much into repressing this type of stuff. And it’s very interesting because the people who use psychedelics, of course, whenever you have this type of conversation, it’s easy to poke holes and prod and say, oh, that’s just a hippie thing. Or it’s easy to be dismissive. But when universities like Yale University and Johns Hopkins and the FDA, when they come out with studies that say, and Yale University came out with a study that says that it can end depression in a single dose. The FDA came out with a study, and this is a quote, they call it a, quote, breakthrough therapy for depression. And these are results that no other methodology is getting for people. Studies of people who suffer from depression, over 50% of them have their depression symptoms lowered just from a single dose. And there’s nothing that has this type of effect.

The way that it works, you know, the guys with the white lab coats and the clipboards, they’re walking around. They like to say that it does all this neuroregenesis, that it causes your brain synapses to grow new stuff. I like to think of it like, you know, everybody knows what it’s like to be stressed. In the way that I imagine, I imagine it causes a burnout in your brain, right? Like you imagine your brain is a city full of lights, right? Like New York at Christmas. And then all of a sudden shit starts going wrong. You got all these brownouts all over, right?

Well in those brownouts, the communication can’t happen. And so the type of what happens to all of this communication, it’s got fewer places to go. And so the pressure builds up and you start losing your mind. And what psilocybin does is it reconnects those synapses and builds the bridge across those brownouts so that the information can be transferred more easily and more regularly. Really, when we think about it on a very simple level, and I know that there’s all sorts of people who could say that this is wrong, but I just like to think of it on a simple level. When we think about what is stress, it is the inability to process the information that we are receiving at that time. And since our brain is the thing that processes that information, if we’ve got brownouts all over, well, it’s going to make it harder. And then what happens is you start feeling this sort of thing and you start feeling a little shoulders coming up and you know, you just feel all of this tension because the information is enabled to flow.

So, what it allows you to do is to process what is happening without the need and without the, the hunching of the shoulders and the clenching of the fists. You know, what’s interesting is that this is what they tried to do with antidepressants. They tried to make them mimic psilocybin because they made these antidepressants attached to the same receptor the same receptors in the brain. But what ends up happening on antidepressants is exactly the opposite.

And I’m a bit, I understand that there’s people who benefit from antidepressants and I’m, I’m happy for you, if that’s the case. I’m a bit touchy on it because my mom was, you know, when I was growing up, she was this beautiful woman and full of life. And then she got on this series of antidepressants, and she ballooned up to 300 pounds. Started losing her hair and when I came home one time when I was 14, she’s, all these ambulances outside of our apartment. And she had tried to put an end to it all. I don’t think, in my experience, antidepressants are, can oftentimes do more harm than good. And what psilocybin does, instead of like depleting the brain of the serotonin, it actually increases the body’s ability to produce it naturally, which is why you see, you know, we have people who so often will start microdosing. And then they’ll say, man, I’m feeling good even on the days that I don’t. We have a certain microdosing schedule that we recommend where people, because you don’t need to microdose every day. And over time, people start to feel better. Even when they’re not microdosing.

Katie: Yeah. And like I said, I know this is a vulnerable topic and it’s one I’ve had personal experience with as well. I think I’m excited to have a resource like you for the microdosing side, because like you, I am more of a, or have in the past been a, if one is good, more is better kind of person. And I’ve shared my own story as well of the things that I’ve been through in the past and my journey to healing. I think that’s a lifelong journey, but I feel like I’ve come a long way on that journey. And I had one point where I experienced those deep emotions so vividly that I did the same thing where I took a really big dose with the intention going in of like, to any of my demons, show yourselves and today we fight. And I don’t recommend that path, though it was effective.

And what my experience of that was like was a loop where it felt like all of these things metaphorically sort of came to life personified in this experience. And I would fight them and I would die. And then I would come back and I would do it again. And this happened over and over and over. And finally, I was just exhausted. And I metaphorically screamed at these things in my head. And I was like, what do you want? Why are you doing this? And they stopped and said, oh, you finally asked. And then they explained how they had been there to keep me safe. And I had been fighting them this whole time. And I asked them, like, well, can you stop doing that now? And it was this kind of unraveling process. But I thought that metaphor was so powerful of so often we fight these things that are meant to keep us safe. And we know now from the nervous system side, those pieces don’t want to disengage until they feel like their job is being done or that we’re protected.

And so I feel like these are kind of a step in if those are the roots of the depression, or if we have something in our life that’s sort of causing that unrest, they can help us to make peace with it in a way that our cognitive mind can’t necessarily logic our way out of. But like I said, I know this is a little bit still in today’s world, a little bit fringe and potentially a very new topic for people listening. And one that I have even been a little bit cautious of talking about in the past, but I just feel like can be so helpful. And I’ve experienced that as well. I also know that there’s actually a lot less safety concerns with these types of therapies than with like the antidepressants and certainly a lot of other mainline treatments. But can you speak to any potential downsides or things people need to be aware of if this is a path they’re considering?

Michael: Yeah. First, let me say that is an awesome story and what a beautiful representation of exactly how I think it works, too. I think that what we end up having happening is we go into life, something happens, some part of us stands up for us like a like a big brother or big sister protector and says, hey, don’t do that. And then before long, all of these things that are protecting us are actually hemming us in without us knowing it. And when we have an experience like you had, we come to ourselves and say, oh, wait a minute. Oh, you’re not fighting me. I’m fighting you and you’re trying to help me. And we get to understand ourselves better. I totally can relate to that and think that’s a beautiful way to put it.

In terms of side effects, there are a couple to consider. One, in microdosing, it’s very mild. You know, for people who are microdosing magic mushrooms, the effects that you notice are going to be very mild. You’re not going to trip. You’re not going to start seeing things. You’re not going to dance on a unicorn across the field. What you’re going to feel is a gentle body buzz where, you know, if you’re laying at the beach and it’s really sunny and it’s that penetrating heat that just feels like, man, I could just lay here forever, except I would get sunburned. That kind of relaxation type of feeling is similar to what it is that you feel when you start microdosing. And a sense of relaxed creativity, where ideas come to you. You know, people, people have said that they’ve, their insomnia of months and months has gone away just from microdosing.

Now, that’s what people, those are the benefits. The things to be concerned about are sometimes if you’re getting your ideal dose dialed in, you know, when you start microdosing, we recommend that you start with 150 milligrams a day. That’s a great starter. But that might be a little too low or a little too much. And in the experimentation to find out what the right dose is for you, you might, in the in-between stages, feel a little mild nausea or a little bit of a headache. If you feel that, you just know that, man, I’m in the in-between stage, between too little and too much. And so we’re looking for the Goldilocks type of dose, which is just right, of course. And so those are the biggest concerns. The nausea, mild nausea, and possible headache, which is why we put organic ginger into the microdoses that we make because ginger helps with digestion and metabolism.

And one of the things that I’ve noticed, you know, when I got started in this business, I really didn’t know much about it. I didn’t know much about the community or about what was going on. But in the last couple of years that we’ve been in business, I’ve noticed something really remarkable. There’s actually a group called Moms Who Microdose, which is awesome. And all of these moms talk about how microdosing helps them to be better parents. How this is, you know, I’m a little bit of a sentimentalist, you know, as you can tell, probably. But like, moms who will write stories like, you know, I’m so busy at work that when I come home, I feel like I can’t give my all attention to my kids. And when I’m microdosing, I feel like I can be a lot more present. Now, that little boy inside of me who wanted his mom to like love him, man, it touches me. It touched me too. And I imagine that the mom feels so much better too. You know, the mom feels like because what a pull it must be to be a mom and to try to handle all this many things that you have to do. So anyway, as we were kind of getting started, one of our customers turned me on to the Moms Who Microdose by saying, you know, I’ve given away my wine of the month club and I’ve joined Moms Who Microdose instead, which I found to be kind of awesome.

Katie: Well, and I think there, like you said, there’s a lot of nuance to someone’s going to microdose to learning what that dose is and to really dialing it in. And I know you said you created a resource to help people understand those intricacies of microdosing and to have resources around this whole topic. Can you let me know where that is? I’ll of course also put a link in the show notes for anyone listening.

Michael: Yes, actually, we created something special for all of your listeners where we have a book called Microdosing 101, Everything You Need to Know about Microdosing Magic Mushrooms Safely and Effectively, including where to get them online. And we also created a book called What to Expect When Microdosing. And this guides you through the first 14 days of your microdosing journey so that you can know, hey, man, what is it supposed to feel like? Am I on the right track? How to find your ideal dose, which is the dose that really allows you to be in the zone, you know, the creativity and whatnot. And we also are offering for the the Wellness Mama listeners, the discount on a microdosing three months supply. We offer a three-month supply because it gives you the time to get started, feel how it affects your mood, your energy, your creativity, and allows those effects to start to linger. We started, you can try a one-month supply, but we found that three months really allows people to benefit from it more. And because they’re coming from you, there’s a $50 discount that we’re offering for them. And you can find that at microdosingacademy.com forward slash mama, M-A-M-A.

Katie: I love it. Well, I will put that link in the show notes as well. But Michael, this has been such an incredible episode. Thank you for sharing your story so vulnerably and for all this work you’re doing that I know is a little bit outside the common and I think can really help a lot of people. And if you guys listening, join us for round two, which we will record soon, we’ll get to go deeper on some related topics as well. But for this episode, Michael, thank you so much for your time and for being here.

Michael: Thank you, Katie. Super fun.

Katie: And thank you for listening. I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.

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