819: Knowing Our Kids More Deeply and Connected Parenting With Barbara Ditlow

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And this episode is part two with Barbara Ditlow. And in this one, we go deep on knowing our kids more deeply and having more connected relationships with them, more connected parenting through understanding their unique and individual aspects as humans. And this topic is so near and dear to my heart because with six kids, I’ve learned over the years that if I learn one thing about one kid, I’ve only learned about that one particular child at that one particular time. And it does not translate the same for each of my children. And so I’ve been on a quest to learn and deeply know them each in their uniqueness. And this is what we got to delve into in this podcast. She gives both general and specific tips on aspects of our children that we have perhaps not had context for understanding before and how human design gives another way to look at and relate to our children and their needs and how they interact with the world. And she gives some fascinating parenting examples as well as how this even affects their learning environment, how mismatch here can lead to them being categorized as picky eaters or being hyperactive, and how we can give them what they need to feel connected and grounded and safe in their environments. So without any further ado, let’s join Barbara Ditlow. Barbara, welcome back. Thank you so much for being here again.

Barbara: Thank you.

Katie: Well, in our first conversation, we got to talk about understanding ourselves more deeply through human design and all of the ways that can be helpful. And in this one, I’m really excited to build on that conversation into the topic of how we can get to know our kids better, understand their types, and have more connected relationships with our children through an understanding of human design. And I know there’s a thousand subtopics we could go into in this conversation. But I think to start broad, I’ve heard you, and this came up in our prep for this interview as well, just talk about the power of listening. And I think this is such a foundational piece for our relationships with our children, regardless of their types. But I would love to hear your voice on this topic because I think it’s such a beautiful and important piece to build from.

Barbara: As a mother, I would say the key is to listen to your child and not be afraid of what the child may say. And as a parent myself, the loving reception of allowing a child to say what they need to say. Taking it in and not condemning, rerouting it, or being angry about what they say, starts from when they’re little children. Children are not empty slates. They’re not what they call a tabula rasa. They come in with a particular way of seeing the world and a particular energy quotient. And with mothers, oftentimes we want the best for our children. So there’s a tendency to see that our children have to see the world, experience the world, and do things as we do. And so listening is a key to be able to say, okay, how are you doing? I remember when my son was very little. He hurt himself. And I immediately started saying, you’re okay. We’re going to do this. And I started talking. I didn’t listen. He put his little fat hand, he was maybe about two years old. He put his hand on my mouth and said, Mama, don’t talk to me, comfort me. And I realized that I wasn’t really listening to a deeper need, that he wanted to be held, he wanted to be comforted. So there are different ways of listening. And so I would say listening as a mother and as a partner and as a friend gives the other person the space to say and be who they are in that moment. And that can be very healing and empowering.

Katie: Yeah, I think of that Walt Whitman quote of approaching everything with curiosity and not judgment. And I think that is such a profoundly helpful statement in all areas of life, but especially with our children. And I love what you said about they’re not empty slates. That’s something people might have heard me say on here before. But one of my principles of parenting is that they are each their own infinite autonomous being. They’re not adults who are in process of loading. They already are infinite autonomous beings. And even as a mom, though, learning to always honor that and treat them as such, I feel like is the journey of motherhood in a lot of ways. And you speak to this so well also about raising our children as these infinite autonomous beings. And what are some of the ways that you encourage parents on that journey? Because I understand for moms listening, that tendency to want to like shape them in the direction that we think is best for them, or even just to soften the chaos in the house when there’s a lot of them. But what are some of the ways that we can honor them in that throughout their whole childhood?

Barbara: From my own experience, there’s a simple way, just be very loving, be very loving and take care of yourself as a mother. In other words, get your sleep, eat good foods, stay off social media. Don’t feel that there’s certain times that are quality times and other times are not. In other words, part of the, I would say the propaganda about getting women into the corporate world was, oh, there’s quality time. We’ll divide, you know, quality time. Children don’t have quality time. It’s the moment when they need the parent that is the quality time for them, not necessarily for the parent. So that’s a distinction.

I think, again, being loving, being loving in a way that knowing that the child is available to listen to you as well. So you’re teaching the child the importance of listening, of saying, excuse me, we’re talking, you will have your time instead of saying, just go away, we’re talking. So part of the you could say the loving aspect to being a parent is to teach your child that there are times to be heard and times not. If you’re engaged with another sibling, or if you’re engaged with someone, say, excuse me, we’re talking, I will get to you next. And then you’re teaching the child then to listen, to wait for the opening where they can be heard. And again, it’s saying with a, with caring awareness, because you’ve taken care of yourself as a mother, you’re not under pressure, you’re not have 1000 things to go. And what happens is usually parents that are under pressure, deflect and release that energy to the children, it can be very negative. So that’s an overall simple thing if you didn’t know human design.

When you understand human design and understand the child’s type, the game totally changes because you understand, is the child emotional? Do they need time to make decisions? Are they busy? Are they more or less people that need their own room? You know, what’s going on? And I know that I did not get human design until my son was about 18. And then I had to go back to him and almost re-approach my relationship with him. And it dramatically improved the relationship, even though he was older. And now that he has children, he said to me, Mom, if you hadn’t told me about my daughter or son, I’d be kind of crazy in this particular point when they go in this direction. And now they can see it and they say, oh, this is the way that they’re to develop their skills and strengths, you know, within the context of the home.

Katie: Yeah, and I know each parent-child relationship will be different in this way. And with six, I know it seems like if I’ve learned one aspect of one child, I’ve only learned one part of that child, and it doesn’t translate necessarily to the others. But what has struck out to me as I’ve started to learn this with my kids is kind of the difference between control and design and how it seems like often when certain behaviors exhibit, it may be coming from an aspect of their design that’s not being acknowledged in a certain way or them like searching for an area of control where they feel like they don’t have it. Can you explain some of the ways as a parent that learning all these things we talked about in our first episode, their type, the way they interact with the world, their environment can totally shift how we interact with them as well?

Barbara: I’ll give you an example. There was a mother that had a four-year-old mental projector child, and she was very caring, wonderful woman, would take her little boy to preschool, and she would always run late because there was a lot of energy in the house. And she would drop her son off the first day, and the second day, and the third day, and the fourth day, and the fifth day. He never went in the room. She had to take him to her job. Why? Because he was so overcome with the energy, he would throw a tantrum.

So she reached out to me. I looked at his chart and said, this child is so open to the energies. He’s going to default into fear. Get him a half an hour early. Change your schedule, drop him off so he’s there right when the teacher is there. And he’s going to then welcome people. And then his body can calibrate the energies coming in and be more selective. She did that and solved the problem. So some children are way more sensitive legitimately to their environment. Other people, they’re going to take over the environment. They’re going to walk in and they’re going to be the big man on campus or the little girl who’s going to tell everybody else what to do. And as a parent, you can speak to that by encouraging them or understanding that aspect.

Another aspect, that’s a projector, can be very sensitive. There are other children that can be very emotional and out of the blue, you could have the best day and then they run to the room crying. And you have no clue why they’re doing that. And again, this is the chemistry in their design that goes up and down. Example, I had a mother whose daughter was in sixth grade. And she hated school. She had a bad day. She had to leave school. It was awful. And so for a week, she carried on this way. And her mother said, OK, we’re changing schools. She went through a week process of changing schools. As soon as her daughter got in the new school, the daughter said, why did you do that? I like the other school. But she was experiencing what we call the spike wave, which is very different from different people. And she was just in a down mood. So nothing was going to satisfy her. But her mother wasn’t aware of that, was really affected by that and just wanted the problem gone. Now she understands this and so she waits to see where this emotional, you could say, journey is going to settle in. And at that point can say to her daughter, how are you doing? What action steps do you want to take? Those are two examples of parents who understood the design of their children and could be more effective in how they supported the growth and development of their child.

Katie: And I love that you brought up school environments and those examples because I am fascinated by how understanding their type might influence their learning, their schoolwork, the style at which they interact with that. And in my life, I have quite a bit of ability to change that for them because we homeschool, which right now means sort of different environments set up for each of the kids in what’s working for them. But I would love for you to speak to how their design type might affect how they show up in school and ways that we can help at least within the ability that we have. Kind of create the right environment, the right energy, the things that they’re going to need to even be in a place to learn.

Barbara: I think the first thing to understand is the school systems have changed dramatically. And they’re not here about education. They’re about, a lot of it is about not following the Latin word aduco to lead out the gifts and intelligence that a child has. It’s more or less putting in belief systems that they have to embrace. So, with a child, they’re so unique, but there are, let’s talk about the generators and the manifesting generators. These children have to be hands-on. They have to be busy. They are not to sit at a desk for eight hours. And in schools, because of funding, they’re taking out gym, they’re taking out recess, they’re taking out art, they’re taking out music. These are all avenues, arenas where kids can get out and move their body, experience relationships with other people. It’s not just within the computer screen. And generators and manifesting generators, very important for them to understand movement is very important in their educational process. And if they’re not getting the movement, there’s a real problem, a real problem.

Now, reflectors are a little bit different. Those children are going to find that they’re going to be more aloof in their environment, and groups are going to be very important to them, but they have to take time in making friends. And if they’re going to a school, the parents have to really feel if this is the right environment for them, for a reflector. They’re very different. They have to be very careful that the people around them and the school that they go to and the neighborhood that they’re in is really working to be supportive.

Now, the manifestors, this is problematic. The manifestors usually have to deal with what we call anger. So they’re going to be people that are not so affected by the school, but they do not want people telling them what to do. Manifestors do not like people asking them questions or saying, you do this, you do this, because the anger will be brought up. So if you have a manifestor child, you can help them understand this feeling or this awareness that they have in school situations where they’re being told they must do this. And if they’re teenagers, most likely they’ll react. They’re going to have a difficult time. And they’re not going to be so socially oriented. Few friends, not group friends. The generator type. Oh, they’re blessed. They can move around. They can have friends. They have a lot of energy. Again, they have to be active. Projectors are very different. They’re going to get into a leadership position. They’re going to be the observers. They’re going to be the people that people many times will like once they get to know, because projectors do best when they’re guiding and helping people, when invited, when asked in.

So really, when you know your child type, you know what problems they’re going to have at school from the begin with, and help them understand how to make solutions. But again, if we divide humanity and your children into two types, emotional versus non-emotional, that you can understand that a child that’s on the wave, they need time to make a decision. And you cannot say to them, are you clear? Are you clear? Are you going to do this? You say, how do you feel? You have to use the word, how do you feel? Are you less nervous about this? Tell me about what you want to do here. Maybe you need to sleep on it. They’re not going to have the same precise, crisp clarity that someone who’s not emotionally defined will have. And that’s an important distinction too, because their teachers are going to be very different. They could have teachers that are very emotional and change from one day to the next. They could have teachers that are very clear and demand some child to show up and be very consistent in the way they feel. And they’re not going to be if they’re on the wave.

Katie: Yeah, I feel like there’s so much nuance and to learn about each of them, but that this is so helpful, even just to have that framework to learn as you go with each of them from that. And I have one daughter who’s a reflector and she’s definitely been my most challenging to learn about or to be able to sort of like figure out what does she need in a hands-on way. But when you were speaking about the movement piece, I thought of a couple of my kids in particular that I realized early on before I knew about all this, but I realized at the time I thought, oh, they’re very kinesthetic learners. There always has to be something in their hands. They always have to be moving. They’re going to climb on everything. So I tried to set up that environment for them where even when we were doing schoolwork, there was Legos they could play with with their hands or Rubik’s cubes or rings they could hang on or they could sit on things instead of having to sit in a chair. And it seems like that really helped their focus and attention. And so now I feel like I have a whole deeper layer with human design to understand why that seems important for some of them, but not for the others and why maybe my daughter, sometimes needs to retreat and get away from energy for a while. And then she’ll come back and do it on her own time when she’s not feeling like she’s got too much structure to force her into that or whatever the case may be.

And as you explain that, I would love for you to speak to also maybe some of these things that these words that kids are given like picky eating or hyperactive or different words like that might actually stem from a mismatch of their environment and their type or how they’re being interacted with and their kind of core needs and how they move through the world and what we can, how we can support them by learning about that.

Barbara: Well, the diet, they’re definitely picky eaters, that they’re designed to be picky eaters. And I’ll give an example. My granddaughter is consecutive, one thing after another. Her mother isn’t. Her mother, as long as there’s a lot of activity and noise, she can eat just about anything. So her daughter comes in and I said, oh, wait, her diet is very restrictive. You cannot mix food. It has to be one thing after the other. And, you know, bless. Bless my daughter-in-law. She struggles with this, but she’s very supportive because we had to make happy plates for her daughter because her daughter, from the time she could eat, she’ll eat one thing after the other. And so we would make plates that were not mixed food. So she’ll sit at the table and she’ll say, do you know what I’m going to eat first? And she’ll go through this. And it also means in her life, she does one thing after the other. It also relates to how you see the world, how you relate to the world. One thing after the other.

And I’ll give you an example. When she eats pancakes, she’ll have silver dollar pancakes as a smile on the face, a little pat of butter as the tongue coming out of the mouth. Then she’ll have a little shot glass of maple syrup and then blueberries for the eyes. Now, what does she do? She takes that chunk of butter and eats it first. Then she eats the dry pancakes. Then she takes a shot of maple syrup. And you’re like, whoa, this is who she is. And she’s almost five. She’s eaten this whole time. And she’s very, very healthy.

There are other people that in their diet, they need hot food. They really need to have warm food above 98 degrees or hot soups, hot liquids, things like that. Other children need cold food. They’re too hyperactive. So we can see in the diet, there’s loud noise, quiet noise. Some people need to be nervous when they eat the TV on, eating a sandwich, being on a treadmill. It helps them digest it better and assimilate. And so there are many different diets. So picky eater, yes, that’s one of the dietary regimens that they have to be very selective on what they eat. So the diet can be crucial in terms of conditioning of a child, but it can be very challenging when you have six children or three children and the diets are all different. But it helps them also relate to how they take in life. Do they take in life where they have to be calm, or do they have to be nervous, or do they have to be picky, or do they have to be open? So the diet is a whole realm of another refinement within a child’s design.

Katie: And it seems like for a lot of kids, even just having the agency to choose, even they, I feel like they do this naturally, even if we don’t tell them what their type is or tell them like, oh, your type is hot food. If we give them agency, I see they often gravitate towards those things. And so this is one shift I’ve made, like in my house, I’ve always had healthy food options available that they could eat if they were hungry any time of day, even outside of meal times, because I wanted them to listen to their hunger. But as I learned the different types, I also made sure there was like for my daughter who needs cold food, she could always make a smoothie and to her, it felt like a potion and she could add all these things she likes to it.

Or for my son who needs hot food, there was always things he could incorporate into a soup or cook on the stove. And it seems like they just naturally gravitate toward that without me even kind of pointing them in that direction. And it makes me wonder, I would guess it like in many areas of life, kids sort of come out of the box with a lot of these amazing skills and intuition and understanding. And I feel like often the way we raise them or the school system sort of trains that out of them. And so I’m curious, how can we help support them in learning to listen to their own inner authority versus accidentally training that out of them by giving them our version of life or giving them structure and expecting them to fit into it?

Barbara: I think it first comes to, as a mother saying, would I like to be told to eat something in a certain way that I don’t like? Again, it’s saying, do I want to have someone impose on me a dietary regimen that doesn’t feel right to me? So it always goes back to your personal experience as a mother. And then you can give agency to your children because you realize how important it is for you. And yes, there may be time involved. There can be more inconvenience involved, but you are what you eat. If you can eat according to your style, it changes your ability, your cognition, the way your brain works.

It’s very important because the brain is the functioning center of everything you do in your life. We’re talking about feeding your brain. So if a parent wants their child to succeed and be successful, it starts with a diet. It starts with a diet. Now, my grandson has loud noise as eating. Now, he’s 16 months, but he already started. He’ll sit down to eat, and then he’ll just make these sounds we call the pterodactyl. He just shouts, but it’s like awh-awh, and then he’ll eat. The pterodactyl will come back, and he’ll eat some more. But it’s that energy, it’s that loud sound that helps him digest his food. Now, some people say it’s very strange. It’s weird. No. Three meals a day. Haven’t you seen the food chart? But we’re evolving as humans to understand the differentiation of each of us and how it begins with the food that we eat and the environment in which we eat the food.

Now, there was another question that you asked in terms of what I call format energies. And there’s certain format energies. There are three of them. And they affect, if a child has that in their design, it affects everything.

One of the format energies is what we call the frequency of mutation. It’s energy which initiates and then fluctuates. And whenever I see that in a child’s chart, I’ll say to the parent, do not drug these children because in a school system, they’ll want their children to sit in a chair. These kids cannot sit. They’re hyperactive, according to schools. But not according to their true nature. And so they need to run around. They need to be very physical. They are, you could almost say, poster children for attention hyper deficit disorder. But who made that diagnostic? People who looked at the children said, you’re not fitting into a school system and therefore we’re going to drug you so you can be like everybody else. These children are extremely creative. They bring tremendous change, but they have to be understood as people that constantly move. I mean, they have to move and they have to run outside, be in nature. The best place for children that have this is nature, nature walks, swimming. It’s incredible energy. These are all generators. This is why the generative energy, 70% of children, they’re generators. You have to see if they have a format.

Another one is the 952, which is the energy to focus and concentrate. My son had this. He could sit for hours. I’d say, go clean your room. Five years old. An hour later, he’s in there playing with Legos, reading books. I said, sweetheart, you were to do your room. Focus on something opposite the other one, which is busy, busy, busy. The other format channel is focused, focused, focused. Those are the ones that can study, that can read, that can sit still.

Then there’s the other one, which we call the energy of maturation. These are kids that get into something and they have to complete it. They get into something and they literally have to complete it and understand what they experienced, talk about it with the parents, share it with other people, because they’re the ones that love to, as generators, socialize with other people and share their wisdom. Three different format energies, very different. And if a child has that, you have to look at them again very differently because this is something, they’re going to be generators. They’re not going to be projectors or manifestors or reflectors. They’re going to be generators, but the energy is very different.

Katie: I have one child like that who I learned to be careful about letting them begin things like TV series or books at night because to them it feels very important to finish it once they’ve started something, which leads to less than ideal sleep if they start a book at 9 o’clock at night and have to stay up till 3 in the morning finishing that book.

Barbara: That’s a beautiful example. That’s a beautiful example.

Katie: Are there, what would be good resources for parents to begin? Because I feel like I’ve been delving into this and still learning about each of my kids, and especially with six of them, I feel like I need a spreadsheet or like alert on my phone to remind me of all the different aspects of them. But where is a simple diving in point? I would guess intuitively that part of it is learning our own human design so that we can come from a more balanced place ourselves, of course, and modeling, I feel is one of the most important tools as a mom. But then where do we go from there to begin to learn about each of them and to be able to learn how our type interacts with their type and how to have the strongest relationship with each of them?

Barbara: There’s really no book on that. You gave the answer right there to learn your type and understand how it works. And then to be able to look at the other type, you know, your child and understand their type and how they interact. The key thing is, are you on the wave or are you not on the wave? What’s your authority as a projector.

Katie: Oh, I think splenic.

Barbara: Oh, okay. So you’re not on the wave. So it would mean that you would be very sensitive to your children on the wave. So I would look at all your children and say, which ones are need time making decisions. Because you’re going to be very clear, very organized, this, this, this, and those children will not be. So the way that you work that in a very simple way is, sweetheart, you need time to make a decision. I’m going to honor that. So you can agree with something with your child one night and they’ll say, yeah, Mom. And then the next day they’ll say, I don’t want to do that. It’s because emotionally they move to a new place and they see things differently. So I would say keep it simple. Know the type and know how they make decisions. And just doing that, it clears 70% of any issues you have. And the diet, you know, the diet and their environment.

Katie: Yeah, that’s so fascinating. And I would say as a tactical tip. For me, I definitely had an area of going like, I have six kids. I can’t make six individual different meals for them every single meal or I would go crazy. But a resource for any other parents listening, if this is helpful, is called Kids Cook Real Food. And it’s a course that helps your kid learn all of the basics of making their own food, which gave them a lot more freedom to choose like, okay, I’m hungry. And now I’m hungry for a particular thing. How can I make this thing for myself? And so that just was a tactical thing that reduced my workload in the kitchen a ton. And they loved it because they get to feel sort of like in control of their food choices and their environment and when they eat, which I think is important because I think we also sort of untrain ourselves in our even natural hunger or what foods we prefer by being put in these structured environments and being told when to eat and what to eat and how to eat. So just a little practical tip for moms.

Are there any other key points of human design that you feel like are good starting points if we’re learning about our children that are sort of like the most impactful starting points to pay attention to as we’re learning?

Barbara: The most impactful is their type. That is key because the projector children are the most challenging. And the manifestor, because they’re very different. The second thing is, is the only thing that heals is love. So it starts with the parents viewing children as an asset in their life, not an inconvenience. So that’s going to be very important, not interfering with their workload, not interfering with this, but understanding they are an asset in their life. And by through human design is about self-acceptance and loving yourself. Starts with the parent, the children will pick it up. And then the children finding their strengths and gifts.

So each child has an incarnation cross. There’s 768 incarnation crosses. And it sort of, you could say, differentiates what their real gift is, what their purpose in this life is. And that’s available in the, I believe that’s in the human design book that I mentioned. But it really helps the child or the parent understand what they’re going to meet in their life. So, for example, a child who’s a talker, my granddaughter’s crosses explanation. Oh, boy, can she talk. She can talk. She can talk. And then her brother’s very different. He’s more of a leader in organization. And at 18 months, all he wants to do is organize things. Not talking, organize. So you begin to know how is this energy going to express.

Katie: And lastly, I’d love to briefly touch on something else, because I believe from researching you, you have done some work with helping people who have been involved in cults. And I would love to just briefly touch on the importance of psychological resilience, how we can help our children have a strong foundation there. And also just maybe anything to be aware of that those of us who have never had that firsthand experience wouldn’t even think to think of.

Barbara: Everything can be a cult. Everything has the potential to be a cult if you give your authority away to someone outside of your domain. I’m going to say that again. The government can be a cult. The church can be a cult. The new age corporate business can be a cult. As soon as someone demands that you follow them above your own inner knowing, that’s a cult. Because a cult, what they do is they say you’re special because you’re in this group. Oh my God, you’re special. And you’re special better than other people. And then it moves. They’re not talking about uniqueness. Because if you’re unique, there’s no comparison. If you’re special, you’re special over this person, that person, and that creates division and that creates a problem later on.

So a cult always has a charismatic leader. They’re always shifting the goalposts. If you do this, this will happen. They will build you up and then they’ll strip you down, build you up, strip you down and weaken you to feel that you really don’t know what is true for yourself. And so for people looking for absolutes, they’ll look for a leader who seems to have this charismatic quality that can say, this is the way that we go.

So one thing about Ra that I really appreciated is he said, I’m not a therapist. I’m not a cult leader. This is about your individual process and having been trained in cult intervention and being in a cult, I realize that it’s a slow process. People don’t see it. And the key thing is, is you feel special because you’re in a special group and other people are not special. That’s the first indicator.

So as a parent, I would say, you know, I love you, sweetheart. Let’s bring your uniqueness out in this life. I get rid of special. You can say this is a special day. This is a special outfit. But you’re working to bring out their uniqueness. In other words, there’s no comparison. There’s just one. And I was reading a study where these researchers were trying to find doubles that weren’t in the families, you know, twins that weren’t in the families. They went through billions. And they found two people that were fairly close in the way that they looked, but very different in terms of their personality and psychological bent. So psychologically, I would say right now in the age that we’re in, people are looking for absolutes. They can be very prone to cults because they’re moving through tremendous uncertainty and upheaval. And that’s when people look for cults. And so, you know, it’s a very challenging time for many people.

Katie: Absolutely. And like I said, that’s such a valuable perspective that I feel like many of us have never thought of in that way. And we’ve now gotten to do two episodes. I will link to all the resources you’ve mentioned so people can find them and keep learning. Is there anywhere online people can follow you and keep learning from you directly? And or I know you do consults, people can work with you as well.

Barbara: At this point, I just have my website and I’m in the middle of changing the website, but it’s humandesignconsultations.com. And in there, you can see what I offer. I teach classes and I don’t have any social media accounts at this point. It’s pretty much one-on-one consultations, follow-up if needed. But my goal is to give people a pathway for self-empowerment so they become the decision maker in their life and they’re not dependent on a guru, therapist, teacher, but they do empower themselves and can use different resources to come to that sense of self-love and acceptance.

Katie: Well, I love that you don’t have social media and I will link to your website in the show notes. Barbara, it’s such a pleasure to get to chat with you. Like I said, I know so many people who so deeply value your work and I’ve been starting to learn all of this as well. And I’m so grateful for your work and your resources. Thank you so much for your time today and for all that you’ve shared and for being here.

Barbara: Thank you so much. I appreciate the time to be with you.

Katie: And thank you, as always, for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.