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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and I am back with Dr. Phyllis Pobee to talk about fasting, why it is not for everyone, why it can be a little tougher on our bodies if we are women over 30, alternatives to do instead, and how genetics come into play.
If you missed our first episode together, I loved that one as well where she really talks about genetics, DNA, and weight loss and all of the variables that come into play there. But in this one, we talk about fasting and how it can impact our body, especially related to specific genes we may have, why our response to it can change with age, how we can lose muscle with age already, and how fasting can speed this up if we do it incorrectly. And alternatively, ways we can support and heal our metabolism even if we have overly dieted for years. We talk about macronutrients and micronutrients and how to signal safety to the body, as well as understanding our body’s unique and specific genetic needs for very specific micronutrients and so much more. I really enjoy Dr. Phyllis’s work, and I bet that you will too. So let’s join her now. Dr. Phyllis, welcome back. Thanks so much for being here again.
Dr. Phyllis: Yes, thanks for having me here again. Nice to see you.
Katie: You too. And I’ll put a link in the show notes to our first conversation where you really delved into genetics and weight loss and gave some really relevant examples from your work with so many women and helping women really understand themselves on a deeper level and how then weight loss seemingly is just a wonderful side effect of supporting their body in a more beautiful way. In this one, I’m really excited to tackle the topic of fasting because this, I think, borders a little bit into the realm of controversial. There’s a lot of conflicting opinions about this. And I feel like your voice is really relevant and important to this conversation because you’re giving the perspective of the genetic side also from your work with so many women and seeing this play out in clinical practice. So I know this is a broad topic, but maybe introduce the concept of fasting and what you’ve seen in your work related to fasting and when it doesn’t work.
Dr. Phyllis: Yes. So the way that I often see fasting is the way that it’s become trendy on, say, TikTok and Instagram is this idea of intermittent fasting. And everyone interprets it to be very different. Women will either maybe do one meal in a day. Some women will go the entire day and then come home and have one really massive meal. And one thing that I’ve seen almost universally is they will initially lose about 10 pounds, maybe 15 and then plateau and then start to gain that weight back and then some.
What I don’t like about this at all is the fact that the weight that they lose, especially if we’re women, 30s, 40s, 40 plus, we’re already losing muscle without doing anything like fasting. And when you lose weight that quickly, muscle is going to be a component of it. So if you lose muscle, which is so important because muscle burns calories at rest, it pulls in glucose and utilizes it and then you gain back fat, you’re actually in a worse position than you were than when you first started fasting.
So I think just hopping into fasting, as like a trend or more of a, I hope I could just lose 50 pounds by doing this, is for most women, not sustainable, because are you going to eat one meal a day for the rest of your life? And nine times out of 10, they tell me no. So this is not a sustainable way of eating. And so, you know, many people think that fasting is this quick fix for weight loss. And it really is complex.
Not everyone’s body responds well to long periods without food. And so due to unique metabolic needs that are influenced by genetics, you really just want to take that time to look at your genetic blueprint before hopping into something that is really quite permanent because you’re affecting your metabolism and it takes a while to recover from that.
And so I’ve had several clients who have tried intermittent fasting. They would get really tired. They would have very intense cravings, felt like they were really not listening to their body. And Katie, that’s something that we’ve talked about is honoring our body, not ignoring those hunger signals. Those are there for a reason. Our body is not trying to kill us.
And so, of course, her genetic profile revealed these variations in the FTO gene, which we talked about previously being this hunger gene or quote unquote fat gene. And so this made her more prone to hunger signals. So her fighting against her body and trying to do this was just really unsustainable. And she ended up gaining the way back until we worked together and came up with something that was more sustainable for her, for her genetics.
Katie: Yeah, I think several important points to delve into related to that specifically, but you’re right. It does seem like for some people, our body can interpret even like small amounts of fasting as like we are entering a famine situation, preserve resources at all costs. I know for me, I did this inadvertently for about a decade between just having kids all back-to-back, plus thyroid issues and trying to lose weight. And it realized years later, I had been chronically under eating and sort of dieting without realizing it for so long that I had damaged my metabolism, and I had to learn to sort of like undo that damage.
But I think the two really important things I want to make sure we go deeper on related to this specifically are you mentioned with if fasting is done incorrectly, we can lose muscle. And I’ve had many experts on here talking about muscle being an organ of longevity. We want, especially as women to preserve and build as much muscle as possible as we get older. So we certainly don’t want to lose muscle if we can help it as we get older.
But also this metabolism piece and realizing. That I think now over 90%, I think of at last that I saw of Americans are metabolically have at least one marker of metabolic dysfunction. So we’ve got some like widespread metabolic issues happening. And if those two things, you know, really come into play when it comes to fasting done incorrectly, how can we preserve muscle as we get older? And how can we make sure we’re supporting our metabolism in a healthy way as we get older?
Dr. Phyllis: That’s so good because age matters in fasting. This is the truth. This is just what it is. Fasting is going to impact younger and older people differently. And so, you know, very oftentimes I’ll have women so confused because they may have tried fasting in the past, or maybe like you said, inadvertently, they were eating less or eating differently. And so by the time they come to me and I tell them, you actually need to eat a bit more or it’s actually the mindset block I need to work through to get them to understand that.
Because when we reach, you know, getting past our 40s, we require more consistent nutrition to maintain muscle mass and energy. So there’s a certain amount of protein intake that we need to be taking in daily in order to just maintain muscle mass, not to increase it. And so obviously, if we’re in a place where, you know, women are coming to me, they want to be toned, they want to look a certain way, you actually need to not only maintain consistent nutrition and protein, but actually increase it a little bit more.
You know, when we’re looking at how much, I think sometimes we are too focused on, well, I’m eating less and I should be at the weight that I need to be. What’s the actual quality of food that you’re eating? Are you eating enough protein? Are you taking enough fiber? Are you taking enough minerals? Are you taking enough nutrition?
And so going into that is the fact that right now, the soil that our food is grown in is not the same soil that we had even 30, 40 years ago. So right off the bat, our food has such a deficiency in terms of nutrients. And so if you are not eating enough, and then you’re eating food that is nutrient depleted, you’re putting your, you’re not even letting your body function as it should. And that even at a cellular level, you’re not able to clear out any of these, you know, cancer cells or harmful cells that are starting to develop. You’re putting yourself at a disadvantage, you’re weak, you’re tired, and then making yourself more prone to weight loss resistance.
And so I know a lot of people are tempted to just take a lot of over the counter supplementation. But you know, genetic testing allows you to do targeted supplementation. So if you are going to do something like fasting, please make sure that you are at least getting the right nutrients for your body and on a genetic point of view. And then seeing if you have things like the clock gene, where eating in a specific window would be beneficial for you, and then what that window would look like. So more knowledge and doing it in the way that is helpful for you instead of harmful.
Katie: I love that. And I want to also just get your feedback and maybe create a distinction here between fasting and or eating in a way that’s like aligned with how we were meant to be in nature. Because I also know there is data suggesting that for instance, eating right before bedtime is largely not beneficial for people in general. So as a general guideline for myself, I try to just stop eating when the sun goes down, but I’m making sure I’m getting enough protein and micronutrients during the day. I’m curious your take on that and like the difference between like eating in a circadian aligned way versus people trying to eat in like a four-hour window to minimize, you know, calorie consumption.
Dr. Phyllis: That’s beautiful, Katie. I love that. And it simplifies it. When the sun’s out, I’m done eating. I’m not in the pantry. That’s a wonderful way to put it. Because when you’re eating very late at night, you’re actually telling your body you’re spiking your cortisol to go higher, which as we know, elevated cortisol drives your cravings, high calorie foods will lead to abdominal weight gain, etc.
And you mentioned, I’m making sure to get in the right micronutrients and protein. What people think fasting is, is not eating anything and then eating everything in those four hours. Going to McDonald’s, that’s not what we mean, especially if you’re looking at specific studies about fasting or autophagy. That’s not what we’re looking at. We’re looking at people that maybe are not eating for a period of time and then eating highly nutritious, getting in their micronutrients, doing the right supplementation. That is not the same as not eating all day and then spending two hours eating McDonald’s.
So I think that just saying that out loud, because people don’t know, right? They just think, well, I was told to fast and eat in a four-hour window. I didn’t realize I had to be very deliberate about the things that I choose to eat.
Katie: Oh yeah. Like I love how you phrased that. And I think that’s, especially for women, it seems like a recurring theme is like many of us just naturally are not eating enough protein. And like you said, with the changes in our food supply, we’re also just not getting enough baseline micronutrients because our soil has changed. The micronutrient density of our food has changed. I know even people like Chris Kresser, who I years ago interviewed, and he said, you know, try to get everything from food. And then in our most recent interview, he said, we’ve now kind of reached a point where that’s no longer possible, unfortunately we almost have to supplement.
But to me, that also is helpful insight because if we know we need to be very supportive in the body in actually achieving protein, micronutrients, sort of these goals, it helps reframe our food choices. So for me, that looked like a shift away from calories or macronutrients or trying to minimize those things into a more positive focused, how can I, in the food that I’m going to eat in a given day, maximize the availability of healthy fats, of protein, of micronutrients. And then when I can’t do that, where can I supplement to make sure I’m supporting my body?
And I feel like what you do is give people that extra layer of based on your own genetics, how can you be most effective in giving your body those micronutrients? And like, what specifically does your individual body need that you might not know just by the food you’re eating or the supplements you would be told to take on TikTok, but like, what is the actual insight of your body? So I love that you help people get that granular.
You mentioned there are genes related to fasting. Are there other ways people can determine if fasting is right for them and or if they need to really be cautious and avoid fasting?
Dr. Phyllis: Listen to your body. Honestly, don’t ignore those hunger responses. Don’t think you’re failing at it. Don’t think, oh, I just need to white knuckle it and try harder. If you really are finding that you’re fasting and you’re not getting more energy, as some people might experience, or you’re finding yourself more sluggish, more snappy, your eating, your eating becomes out of control.
My concern in someone that has been a weight loss physician is I see both sides of the spectrum. As an obesity medicine physician, I’ve seen people that go into binge eating. I go into overeating and restrictive eating. What I really liked about what you said, Katie, you probably don’t notice it because you’ve done it so much. You’ve exercised it as a muscle, but you’re like a reframing queen. You’re so good at reframing. You’re like, well, he told us something really scary about our food supply, but I do this instead. That’s so helpful because we should be reframing. We reframe it as, well, what do I get to eat? What can I include in my day because I’m so fortunate to be able to nourish my body?
Very oftentimes, women look at it as, oh, well, I don’t get to go and eat McDonald’s anymore and focus on things that they’re removing from their diet. Focus more on what you can be adding to your diet or should be adding into your diet. I think that reframe is really important. Just having that right mindset is really going to take you a lot further than what fasting can really, that road, fasting improperly can take you down where you can end up in this binge cycle because a lot of women that I work with have this perfectionist mentality.
I only usually tell this to my clients, I never say this to people, but I’ve gained, I yo-yoed my whole life and I had one period of my life where I gained 80 pounds. Oh my God, it’s so embarrassing. I gained 80 pounds in six months because I spent six months starting a diet on Monday and then by Tuesday or Wednesday, I’d fail the diet completely. It was so restrictive. And then I would eat everything. I’m gonna go here. I’m gonna go to all my fat favorite restaurants. I’m gonna restart on Monday. And I would restart on Monday and quote unquote fail by Tuesday or Wednesday. And so I start to tell this story more because a lot of women relate to this all or nothing idea of if I’m not gonna do it perfectly or only eat in this like tiny window and only eat 500 calories a day, then it’s not gonna work and it’s not perfect.
And so I will shout from the mountaintops that it doesn’t have to be that restrictive. Losing weight can actually be, yes, dare I say easy. You just need to have the right blueprint. You don’t have to suffer. You don’t have to punish yourself. So if fasting does feel like punishment to answer your question, then it probably isn’t for you and there probably is a better way.
Katie: Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. I feel like that’s so relatable. And probably all of us have to some degree had that experience, or I know I have with like, whether it be a new exercise thing or a new diet and trying and failing, and then like the starting Monday thing, that’s so relatable. And I love that you say that this actually can be easy. I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier in this episode of like learning the language of our body and realizing that when we look at societally, we just are not, we have to be a little more proactive than we used to be. We’re not as set up for success as we used to be with a number of things our body encounters that it wouldn’t have encountered a hundred years ago. But understanding that we can learn the ways to support our body. So that doesn’t have to be sort of like our Achilles heel.
And so we’ve gotten to talk about fasting. I feel like this is maybe going to bring it full circle even to our first episode. But what are some alternative methods that women can do to boost fat loss without fasting, especially if they’ve tried the fasting and it didn’t work or it stressed their body out and kind of got them in that cortisol pattern?
Dr. Phyllis: Yes, definitely. Eat more. I know it sounds, I know a lot of women are going to be like, no, Dr. Phyllis, what are you talking about? Please eat more food. And I actually have to get to the point with some of my clients where we’re setting an alarm to be like, every two hours, what are you eating? And it could just be, you know, like a beef stick or a bit of, you know, a little bit of cheese or if they’re not, you know, dairy intolerant. But just getting into this habit of, you know, if you look at a fire that’s, you know, you’re kind of like giving it the kindling to just continue burning. And so getting you into that pattern where your body knows it’s okay, you’re going to continue to get food. It doesn’t need to hold on to everything.
And from a mental point of view, where you are starting to enjoy just the day to day because you’re not constantly feeling in the state of deprivation. You’re not feeling from, you’re not coming from this place of lack. Food is abundant. It’s okay to eat. Just choosing the right foods for you. So I think it could be really freeing.
And just having the understanding that raising your metabolic rate in this way kind of evens the playing field. Because I think a lot of women feel, oh, I just have a slow metabolism. I will never, that identity piece, that’s just how I am. I’m never going to be someone that loses weight easily. And that’s not true. People don’t realize that fasting can just be tough on your adrenal glands. And so if you just are naturally someone that has very high cortisol levels and you are feeling worse on fasting and you continue to do this, you’re never going to really just get to your goal.
And so, like you said, in terms of being able to increase what you’re eating in a day in terms of your micronutrients, doing things consistently. I think that’s my takeaway. Consistently eating every two hours, consistently doing some type of movement. I love how you talk about going outside, seeing the sun. If you can just probably, please do not overthink this. You don’t have to go to Equinox. You don’t have to go to some huge fancy gym. Go put your sneakers on or don’t wear your sneakers. Go and touch the grass with your toes and step outside and walk outside for 30 minutes, 20 minutes. That consistency is more important than doing something intense once a week. And then you don’t feel like doing it ever again.
That consistent movement trains and teaches your body to burn fat in a consistent basis. And universally that works for all women that I work with. So that’s what I would highly recommend.
Katie: Thank you. I love that so much. And I feel like all those things speak to kind of like, maybe it was like the core of a lot of what you’re talking about is learning your body so that you can signal safety to your body, or at least this was a big part for me. And I think there is an emotional inner work component of that as well, that is being more talked about. And that of course could be its own whole series of podcasts, but from a physical standpoint as well, if our bodies don’t feel safe, they’re going to hold onto resources. Our cortisol is going to be affected. We’re going to be in that stress state.
And when we’re in sympathetic nervous system dominance, and we’re in fight or flight, we’re not resting and digesting. We’re not recovering. We’re not sleeping well. Our bodies aren’t in a state to heal. And so I think that like safety piece is so important.
And the work that you do helps people understand for their own body, how to signal safety in the most effective way possible. But it does seem like for women, especially like what you just said about eating more and maximizing those macronutrients, micronutrients, and signaling the body that we’re not in a starvation scenario is really important and one that we’ve kind of, even people who are eating because of the lack of nutrients in our food supply, our bodies might still be getting the signal that we’re starving. So I think this is all, and I know that you also go deeper with people on this topic. You have resources online and that you work one-on-one and in groups with people on this. So can you talk about the work that you do and where people can find you if they want to work with you one-on-one?
Dr. Phyllis: Yeah. So you could head to genelean360.com and just watch a really short video about what is genetic testing? How does it work? Why is it so efficacious? How can it make weight loss easy? And you’ll also have the opportunity to schedule a consultation, one-on-one consultation with me. We’re going to go through everything that you’ve tried before and if genetic testing is a good fit for you.
Once you get your genetic test and you start working with our incredible team, we’ll be working with you for either four months or a year. It depends on your needs. And what that looks like is you getting that targeted supplementation for your genetics. So we send that directly to your home. We do have a GeneLean360 supplementation line for our clients.
And then we’re also providing you with that support in terms of bi-weekly coaching, but also we work with a coach, she’s actually a weight loss coach who does neuroscience. So just that neuroplasticity of weight loss, changing that mindset, working on the connection piece in your brain to rewire it into what Katie already has naturally, that reframing approach to be able to really look at each opportunity to be healthier and make this process as easy as possible. So that’s how you can find me. You can also head to Instagram at genelean360.
Katie: I love it. Well, I will put all of those links in the show notes for anybody listening on the go. That’s always at wellnessmama.com. Dr. Phyllis, I hope we get to have more conversations in the future because I absolutely love the work that you’re doing. I learned a lot in this episode. I love how you speak about all these topics. Like I said, the links are in the show notes. You guys go check out Dr. Phyllis. But for today, thank you so much for your time. You are an absolute joy.
Dr. Phyllis: Thanks for having me.
Katie: Thanks for all that you shared. And thanks as always to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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