655: What You Don’t Know About Water, Its Job, and Revitalizing It for Best Interaction with Our Bodies with Natural Action Tech

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Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com, and this episode goes deep on a topic that you probably have definitely heard of, which is water, but in ways that you definitely have not heard of. And I’m here with Jonathan Butts, who is absolutely fascinating. He worked in the naval nuclear power program in the 90s and then he worked in industrial machine design and integration, which he continues to do today, and he has specialized in a lot of different types of equipment through his years in this work.

But in 2007, he began evaluating water for use as a supplementary efficiency improver of thermal processes, and he began designing and building water machines. And over the next five years, he observed remarkable properties and behaviors within water while he was analyzing it. And this realization and his observations led him to shift his focus into biological functions, with water always being the primary regulator of electricity. He helped start Natural Action Tech in 2010 and became the CEO and owner, as well as the founder of the American Water Trust in 2020.

And in this episode, we go deep on the basic foundational building blocks and understanding of water and the real definition of water, how water can communicate and how we can help it communicate better, why water is alive and a way to understand why this is important. We talk about the terrain model and how this relates to water, how information is stored in water, the correlation between human pregnancy and water’s action in the body, how our blood is similar to ocean water, and why this matters. We talk about the life cycle behavior in water and how to use this to our advantage.

He goes into the double blind studies he’s done on water and ice crystals, as well as his four year study on the vibration of water. We talk about the inertia of water, the declining of hydration as we age, and how to hydrate better, the geometric patterns in water, and why people with illness have the same geometric patterns as water does when it’s not at its optimal form. And we talk about structured versus coherent versus revitalized water and how we can replicate that at home and so much more. A very fact packed episode. I know you will learn a lot. I certainly did. So without any further wait, let’s join Jonathan Butts. John, welcome. Thanks so much for being here.

Jonathan: Thanks for having me on the show.

Katie: Well, I’m so excited to learn from you today. And we’re going to get to go really deep on the topic of water, which people may not even know how much they don’t know when it comes to this topic, because I certainly did not. But before we jump into that, I have a note in my research in the show, notes that your favorite thing to do is walk. And I would just love to hear your opinion and advice on this because this is something that’s really hit the mainstream. I think that’s innate to humans. But we’re being reminded constantly now the importance of walking. And it seems like you have this dialed in.

Jonathan: Yeah, I think for me, it’s simplicity and observation and letting the mind run out and that kind of non stressful activity that’s very natural. It’s just something I used to love to hike. Hiking made it more of, like a thing. But then I realized, you know what? All said and done, I race cars, fly airplanes, do all this fancy stuff, but the place I’m most peaceful is just walking. I think it takes us back to, like, a simple grounding of more of emotion and mind and everything. And of course, walking in nature, I think is better if you can pull that off. But I noticed I started enjoying it. I’m not a city person, but I even started enjoying it, like, anywhere and everywhere. So my life just seems better if I just go for a walk on a regular basis.

Katie: I love that. And it seems like there’s so much research that we shouldn’t even need, but pointing to how humans were meant to not just exercise in 1 hour blocks per day, but to really just move more in general. And that one of our natural states, is walking. So I love that that’s a habit for you and hopefully for a lot of people listening as well. And the thing I’m really excited to delve into today with you is the topic of water. Because, like I said, I think there’s more to this topic than people even realize, and a lot that all of us don’t even know that we don’t know. So it seems simplistic. But to start broad, I would love for you to just define water for us. Is it a chemical? What kind of substance is it? What do we need to know about the basic foundational principles of water?

Jonathan: I think there’s layers to the definition. So obviously, if we’re in a certain art like chemistry, the definition is h20, which means when we break this into the smallest pieces we can, we come out with a group of h20s that have a weight. And nobody’s ever seen an H20 molecule or any of the particles that science ever talks about in isolation. Which is interesting to note. You see light fragments coming from it. But in the end, the chemistry definition is H20. I would say that’s like calling a home a box, you know what I mean? It’s too oversimplified and too mechanical.

And really what we see as the definition of water when we look in depth is a biological communication system that receives information, alters information and puts that information back out in a lightly modified way, almost like molding clay, if you will, if that makes sense. Like, okay, you got the general shape, but now you’re going to articulate it. So when we watch water communicate within a cell and out to the outer cell, we see modulations in the vibrations. And that’s what communication is, essentially, is a vibration, whether it’s sound, whether it’s eyesight and light and all these different forms, really the whole universe is just communicating to each other. And when we get down to our likeness, mother Earth and ourselves, we’re made of water. So that’s the medium where all this biological communication incurs and that’s where this new understanding of water comes from, is that we can change the water so it communicates differently.

And obviously the goal is to make it communicate better, just like a human being would want to communicate better to another human being, to build a better relationship or achieve higher quality goals. So in the end, I would say the simplest definition is H20 as defined by chemistry, maybe a sacred element as defined by more indigenous and religious cultures. And then in the truest sense communication system, incoming and outgoing for all biological life to form in.

Katie: And that’s so fascinating to me and I think a great springboard into the next question because when you talk about water being able to communicate, it brings up the question, is water alive? Does it have living kind of properties? Or I know I’ve read some things about living water versus dead water and the difference, but would you consider water alive?

Jonathan: 100%. Like the source in a simple way. Not like life as a human being tries to consciously figure it all out in many parts and facets of their journey or their life, but a very foundational, simple way that we don’t understand the simplicity because we’re so complex in our creation. Things like it’s not common sense to walk anymore. That may change the water in your body, right? That may be why we like it or it’s so healthy. There’s some evidence there to support that. But definitely, for sure a communication system that’s alive and you have to kind of look at it like a gateway, a doorway to beyond our perception. So maybe a connection to our subconscious. Some people would say a higher mind. I don’t really agree with higher I think broader bandwidth, right, more diverse intelligence and awareness are kind of the same thing. So the more we’re aware of, the more intelligent we are. But what is the simple grounding factor that binds all that intelligence and it’s a simple energy of life. Some people call it life force, some people call it qi or prana. Some people divide it into polarities or the ether. That really doesn’t matter. It’s beyond our perception is what matters. And we communicate with what’s beyond our perception.

And water seems to be the bridge or the gateway for biological life as we understand it. For mammals, for fungi, for single cell all the way on up to complex creatures like human beings on up to like the Earth is alive, right? It gives birth to everything. And we have this definition of life for us as human beings and how we interpret other animals and other things. But in the end there’s this simple energy that wants to manifest and it seems to be terrain model, some people haven’t heard of this. And playomorphic which means everything is always in transition of evolution. Epigenetic, quicker, more long range evolution, more what we would call DNA and genetics.

But there’s a huge without getting too deep into the science, there’s a huge body of hardcore evidence that even NASA and the beginnings of life in space and seeking similarities to Earth basically is now understanding that somehow there’s information that is stored in the water that is like DNA to construct life. But it has to read the terrain or the environment first because it doesn’t want to give birth to something that is dissonant with the environment. So right away the water is reading the environment before it gives birth. And you could really take a human analogy with this as some of the hardcore evidence on human pregnancy.

So when the human pregnancy first occurs they’re what you call non nucleus cells which is identical to cancer and how cancer is staged out or diagnosed basically. And so the interesting thing is here is the beginning of life and the end of life cycles are kind of the same. That’s what you see in water. And there’s microscopic evidence that water forms single cell like almost like fungi, but it’s just made out of water. And that’s kind of the closing case as far as water first making circles with water that’s different on the inside than on the outside and that’s kind of the definition of a cell and then arranging those in geometric configurations that represent the beginnings of life. And then you tie that to what occurs in the human pregnancy for the first nine weeks and what goes on there and what you see is the same thing. The womb, the water, the water in the womb is different from the water in the blood and the body and then the zygote or seed or egg, whatever you want to call it, basically metastasizes to the womb. And then there’s a whole pathology there that helps us understand the beginnings of life and the end of life a lot better. And that’s all predominantly created by water. So, it’s a huge leap right now.

We’re in this window of the last ten to 20 years. We don’t understand all of it by any means. Like you said, there’s more to learn about this. It’s like discovering a new universe. But I think the correlation between human pregnancy, the single cells and water forming single cells out of itself really defines the what is living water. And it seems like the more you disconnect water from that cycle, there’s a natural propensity for it to want to bring life forward even more. So the more oppression there is to life, the more evolution and charge you get from the water in cases to grow life, whether that’s good or bad, is subject to what the terrain already is, in my opinion. So it’s a very deep look.

But again, the correlation between human life and water in the beginnings and the end and what the water does in those beginnings and ends is mirrored throughout the planet, which is another very kind of simple but very holistic view that there’s a pattern here that teaches us how to integrate with the planet through water. Water kind of being the blood for trees and plants and soil and the whole earth and our blood being very similar to ocean water. So a lot of similarities there that are very simple and I think those bring the foundation forward where the deeper science of it can get somewhat confusing and you can get lost down a rabbit hole with it.

Katie: So if I’m understanding water is essentially we could classify it as alive, but it wouldn’t be considered conscious like a human would be. But it makes sense what you’re saying about water being tied to all life. And I had not heard that about the single cell organisms like that. But I am in a major house plant phase and they are great reminders of how even just a small lack of water can make such a big difference. And I find that the running joke that as humans we need water and sunshine and we’re basically just complicated house plants with emotions. But I now notice the difference a lot if I don’t stay hydrated.

But it also seems like all water is not the same. And there are probably different categories when it comes to water and how they’re interacting in the body. And I’ve seen even graphics online of different patterns in water when different things were done to them. Even people showing when water was like said kind things to water versus mean things, the structure of the water changed. And I don’t know if there’s any validity to that. But can you talk us through the different types of water that we may not even understand as categories?

Jonathan: Sure. I think to simplify so all water types have purpose and learning how to build relationship with that purpose, what it does is basic kind of more chemical behavior. It’s life cycle behavior is how I like to look at it because we have our own life cycle and there seems to be a consciousness cross. Beta Austin is doing some work where over the years she’s categorizing ice crystal images and the repeat of them, and it looks like the water and you, through some kind of universal connection, get better at communicating to each other. And she calls them glyphs. And I did some double blind studies to show if the laboratory tech didn’t know they were supposed to be communicating with the water, that nothing happened even when we treated the water. So the ice crystals seem to be the best way to take a photograph of a simple intention with water or conscious interaction or communication, right?

And so it’s actually developing a language. And the people who it’s just like you and I, if we spoke different languages and hung out together, it would take us a while to learn each other’s language before we could start to communicate. And it’s mimicking that. It’s almost like the water is like, okay, you develop a language, you need to be simple and articulate, because if you’re not, we’ll both be confused. And she’s been doing that for years. And there’s repeat things that are like glyphs that mean something like the signs, like fire, earth, water, fire, simple the elements, right? Those are coming back with high repeat probabilities with people who have developed the language. Whereas if I take somebody who has no idea that you could develop a language with water and have them run tests literally, like there’s no response from the water. Even when the lab tech is making changes to the water, there’s no discernible response.

So it’s almost like in these ice crystal analysis, if there is no conscious intention to develop a relationship and communicate with water, there is no response, which is common sense what it would be if you and I have no intention on building a relationship and communicating. And we speak different languages and water speaks a very simple language that is at the root of the whole universe. And it’s hard coding, in my opinion, and it’s always biased to supporting the growth of life. No matter what you do to it. It seems to want to grow things and we even see it go the other way, where if we kind of lock it up and put it under a lot of stress that the water becomes aggressive. Just like if we raised a human being in a gang environment, in an urban environment, chances are that human being would not have the same journey. They might come out the same in the end because your journey maybe is a little bit fade, a little bit free will, and somehow that blend seems to work out with all living things and the way the universe works. And water is like a medium there to support that.

So the consciousness thing is completely independent. Like me as an engineer and a designer. I tend to separate the two, but it’s getting really difficult to do that and be fully advising on what water is capable of. From a scientific standpoint, yes, it seems water has a consciousness, but it’s much clearer and simpler than ours, where we have a doubting, questioning, confusing consciousness, which is not a bad thing. It breeds curiosity. It allows for greater complication and creation.

But if you look at nature and the patterns of how a tree grows and how lungs grow, right, they’re like the same. But like you said, we’re just kind of a plant with a computer, and the computer likes to know, right? Whereas the body whole just likes to feel. And there’s kind of the difference between logic and emotion or the male female energies. And without going into detail, what qualifies male and female energies? In my four year study of watching water vibrate, is more or less that’s what it told me. Emphatically it wasn’t confusing for me. It was like, wow, this is what it’s doing. And for me, that was like 15 years ago.

And since then, I’ve watched science unfold more and more hardcore evidence that makes that effect that, yeah, water is alive. Water probably has some form of consciousness, not overcomplicated like ours. And you will get more out of water if you it’s reflective with modification. So people always want to know what they can do to their water, and that’s where they stop, in my opinion, is people want to know what the water is going to do for them. But I think how you get most out of the water is what can you do for it, in its journey? And it will reflect that back plus some, because that’s the natural balance of the universe is to bring life forward, not to empty everything out. Otherwise, we’d be empty already.

Katie: That is an interesting reframe of thinking of not what water can do for us, but of what we’re communicating to the water. And that definitely brings up the topic also of hydration, which we all understand is a necessary part of the human existence. And I often think in terms of order of importance. We can go weeks without eating. We can only go days without water, and we can only go minutes without air. So to me, that indicates that how we breathe is important. Also, how we hydrate is important, even more so than what we eat, though many people tend to just focus on what we eat. But it makes me curious when it comes to hydration and human interaction with water, what are some of the ways that we can optimize that? And what are some of the factors that come into play with how well we are or are not hydrating?

Jonathan: Well, I think the first important thing is a lot of people. So the body has operating states that seem to be dictated by let’s just say I use the inertia of water you’ll hear a lot of people in this budding industry use water has memory, and I don’t really like that as much of inertia. It has a tendency to stay like a big flywheel. The heavier one wants to keep turning, right? And so if we call these human stages and water stages that water in a certain condition for a long period of time will build up a balancing energy that has an inertia that wants to keep going. And it’s not good or bad. It’s just simple, right? We tend to make things good or bad where most of the rest of the universe is kind of just doing what it does to balance out and maintain the relative life cycle for the area, right?

So when you look at it, you have this inertia. So if you’ve not hydrated properly, which we don’t know really what the definition of that is all the way, especially with these new tools we’re learning about water. So we don’t know what full on hydration is. And we’re always declining in hydration by the clinical definition over the years, right? So when you’re 40, you’re not as hydrated as when you’re 20. And when you’re a baby, you’re most hydrated. And so we have this natural declination that occurs, which is something we have to work with. So it makes sense that as we get older and wiser, we need to understand water better to minimize that declination or even level it out or even reverse it at some times.

There’s great evidence to show that if you kind of pressed yourself down by dehydrating that you can actually come up, that you weren’t potentialized. So, like at 40, you might be able to hydrate better than 30 and even 20 using the technologies and the know-how in building that relationship with water. So you can kind of get most of it back as if you would have hydrated. That’s the beautiful gift of the universe. And the beautiful gift of water is water can be stuck in an old, tired state. And with technology and your application and your relationship, however you define that, you can actually change the water back to a living, matured state pretty quick, and then the body will have to adapt to that.

Your water mass and all its proteins and bones and structure that make up this situation take time to change. And that’s all good. We all know sudden change, even if it’s for the better, can cause consequences in the short term. So what it means to me is water is programmed to gently change. It has very much a female or a mothering quality to it, where it already knows by being part of creation that sudden changes, even though on paper your hydration levels and oxidation levels and sugar levels and all these things we might use to gauge a measurement clinically of hydration aren’t going to change suddenly with the invocation of good relationship with water and drinking, like what we call proper water, which, again, I can elaborate a little bit more.

But I’ll pause here looking at the life cycles of water can be seen somewhat scientifically from young water, middle aged water, and then old age water. And we tend to want to use the younger and the middle age more than the older water. And that’s probably a fine line between mature water and like what we would call old water or dormant water or water at the end of its life cycle that needs rejuvenated. And so we can use these different things.

And really the difference is adaptability and aggression of the water. So we see that our current society has like a more disease. It always has to have more and more. It has a lot of waste. It’s really inefficient. And so water kind of moves to that state according to how we treat it. And we can take it out of that state and mature it. And we do that by taking the aggression out of it. It’s like the more we stress water, the more water stresses back outward because it’s balancing to the environment. So if it’s in a high stress environment and it even goes down to correlation with really good evidence, there needs more scientific work here.

But there’s a geometric pattern that occurs during crystallization, during evaporation, underneath the microscope that dormant water and somebody with a chronic illness have the same square blood pattern and same square water pattern when the mineral, what you call the mineral growth as the water is evaporating, holds these almost cymatic patterns. And what we see is there’s a very specific pattern associated with sickness.

Now the question is, does that pattern get into the water and then sickness comes? Or does it both happen simultaneously or do we get sick and then the water pattern reflects that. And those are the kind of things that need studied. But the probability of seeing those patterns and identifying like a sick person pretty severely what we might call the stage four or a stage five illness is the same exact pattern we see in old tired water when it needs to be recycled by nature and rejuvenated.

So very profound, kind of simple one, two, three, but very deep as far as what it means for medical diagnostics, manufacturer, quality of water. We use this method ourselves to say, okay, we’ve changed the water from either brand new newborn pattern that was born under stress or a water that’s old and needs to be re-looped that also has that same pattern. And I don’t get into the medical side because I don’t do the blood work analysis, but we do look at water in that way.

And the idea is if that you feed that living water to the body, your body doesn’t have to work so hard in order to get the signature changed. But it’s not like it happens overnight. It’s a gentle process and consciousness seems to be coming in as we’re doing this, you’re learning about it. Knowledge on one hand, but the intuition on the other hand. Your intuition seems to get stronger blended with knowledge. And I always tell people intuition is half knowledge and half feel. It’s not pure feel and it’s not pure knowledge. It’s the culmination of your life’s experience mixed with understanding your own inner emotions which are feelings that we generally don’t understand. Emotions I describe as feelings that cause it’s kind of a negative most of the time when somebody says they’re emotional, right? Maybe that’s not true, but that’s the connotation of the word. And it’s just a feeling that you don’t know how to explain that’s bothering you.

But there’s also good feelings that you intuitively might question and take away from yourself or you might reinforce and use that as a positive motivation to change your life. So the good or bad of it, I try not to get into. I just try and get into what helps the intuition, the knowledge and flow to minimize suffering and maximize joy. And if I had to give a purpose of the ether of water, of life coming forward before we understand what it is, that’s what I would say it is. That’s what it’s trying to encourage regardless of what we see happening around us.

Katie: This is such a fascinating concept to me and it’s not one I’ve heard really talked about before with the idea of young versus middle aged versus more mature, older water. Which brings up the question I’m curious about the difference between things like filtering water, structuring water. I know you talk about revitalizing water and you mentioned the term it needs to be recycled by nature. So I’d love to hear what that means and maybe how we can know sort of the age of water or what factors come into play here.

Jonathan: Sure. I guess let’s start with the beginnings of the life cycle. And I guess it’s important to realize not to think of time, that time is kind of the illusion that washes out principle which are timeless. And so creation is a simple principle and that kind of means something’s coming into perception. Some observer can see something that wasn’t there before. And we might start with the newborn process. Like, say I always like to make analogies with the human being, especially a mother, because pregnancy is I couldn’t have that experience right, being a male. But I can only imagine what it’s like, the physiological changes to carry something that’s to gain that weight like a foot long and weighs like 9lbs is just profound to me when I try and imagine that happening to me.

So in the womb, it is incubating and it’s not entered the world yet as its dense form, right. It’s kind of hidden from the rest of the world and in the womb of the mother. And we might consider that like the evaporation process, say, like in the early period of pregnancy, this phase change from an egg to a being, which seems to take about nine weeks. But don’t think about time. Think it’s like leaping from a seed to a baby in this time. So we might call the seed like water that’s evaporated and there’s all these little seeds like spores in the atmosphere and that’s very young and very kind of energetic and about to be born and ready to enter life. But it doesn’t really happen until it condenses again.

So basically it’s purified, right? Let’s just say a soul comes in at some point into the baby. They say it’s nine weeks at which the cells I talked about this nine weeks, it’s more of a creature for nine weeks. Then all of a sudden at the nine week point, there’s all these studies that show that, hey, we even think the soul arrives right around here beyond the point of this topic. But okay, life is forming, but it hasn’t manifested yet. So it manifests in the rain. And as it’s raining, it’s picking up characteristic or as the child development is occurring in the womb, it’s picking up emotions from the mother through the water. And the water is kind of the force field and shield. It’s a very physical shield.

I did nuclear power and the best radiation blocker for all types of radiation overall is water. So when you want a shield against radiation, you use water. So now we see this life forming is forming of water, very high percentage of water, different from the water that surrounds it in the womb. And it’s all shielded and protected and it’s getting information that’s not good or bad. And that’s why a baby and a generation are born parallel to the water droplets falling from the sky. Now are reading all that information to the environment and changing how it’s forming itself. And it’s very determined to do that, let’s just say. And now the water droplet lands in the soil and it’s born.

And this very youthful and observant water has some incubation in the soil, a huge relationship with carbon and now becomes available to the plant as it soaks up everything it can get learning out of the soil and takes that to the plant and it controls that electrical vibratory environment. And they’re, just like a child born, may control the behavior of the parents. Now, parents being more mature water, how does this water mature in its full life cycle in nature? Is it the water that’s unused by the soil? The excess goes way down deep in the earth and you might say that’s where it’s really growing up and maturing as it’s journey down.

And ideally, like if we could say let’s raise as parents, we would all want to raise the best child we can and give them the best tools possible and the best experience possible. And in the way of water, it’s going deep into. The Earth and then rising up. And here’s an anomaly of water. Water has the most anomalies out of any element on Earth is rising up as a cold at 39 degrees Fahrenheit, usually in the mountains and then riding down the mountain stream and reading all the life that is formed in this clear, crystal clear. How does it stay clean? Right? Questions are popping up now. How does it rise at 39 degrees Fahrenheit? Why is it at 39 degrees Fahrenheit? Well, it’s its densest point. That’s its mature point where the water is most mature. And then it reads the environment as it rolls over all the minerals. Like every atom on the planet, the water will flow over and read in the rocks and in the surface of its air interface and in the banks that it flows through. And the whole time it is rolling to the left and rolling to the right and tumbling about itself.

And without that process, the communication hole between it and the environment is turned down, almost like somebody turned the channel off, turn the volume off. So this is how we learn as scientists, developers and engineers that what is going on with the water in a river that matures it. That doesn’t happen in pipes. And it’s really obvious. Pipes flow in a straight line. If you look at the flow in a straight pipe, it looks like it’s dead still. There’s no bubbling action, there’s no rotation anywhere.

And so that brings us to the first step in revitalizing water, copying nature maturing water in a biomechanical or biotechnical sense, meaning we’re engineering things to mimic nature, not engineering things according to equations that tell us that this is the best way to do things. So that brings us full circle to mature water. At that densest point, water has the most capability to pick up and hold what we would call toxins. But I tell people toxins is amount, not a thing, because every element that we’ve ever discovered is in the body, including uranium, and is used by the body with a purpose.

And so the water now mature is able to read all this stuff. And this also makes a correlation with filtration. If we’re concentrating toxins, which what nature does, is deconcentrate toxins. In this whole process, water is always moving things, spreading it out. And what’s toxic for us is actually food for another thing. So water is somehow able to discern that when it’s alive or mature. And in this state that we call structured water, coherent water, revitalized water, whatever this whole water body term is, where this stuff’s making decisions based on some kind of programming or dictate or we don’t know or algorithm. There is an algorithm in water. I personally discovered that’s repeatable, very simple one, how the universe grows was in there in the electrical curves. So tying all these complex pieces together, we see that the mature water reads the environment, it flows over and sometimes in filtration, like low quality filters, we mature the water.

Then if it goes back through a low quality filter and I will make that dissertation of low quality filter because the way the toxins are stored, the water is flowing back over those toxins again. So you’re like maturing the water and then exposing it to things that really aren’t of use to the human body. So you got a bunch of signals in the water that aren’t harmful, in my opinion, but they’re just noise that’s not needed. So now we have a design basis for what mature water is in nature, scientifically. And this shows up under the microscope as a pattern. And this pattern is non right angle, kind of simulates what trees and plants and crystals look like in the pattern, different from a right angle, like a fence or a grid pattern on a notepad or that’s what it looks like when the water is tired and stressed out.

And this life cycle could be milliseconds, nanoseconds or thousands or millions of years based on where the water is you’re looking at and where it is in the life cycle. The reason for the need for the technology, the straight pipes, the pumps, the machinery, the metal, the overgrounding. And metal, the over shorting the metals, which if you look at it in nature, like copper and gold and silver and iron and all the other metals are speckled throughout rocks, in silicon, primarily in calcium. So now we have the definition for a crystal or a dielectric in electrical engineering. And then we have an idea how we might simulate the river and intensify it so it happens quicker.

And indeed, that’s where we’re at as developers, scientists, engineers, is we have some level of basic tooling, basic maturity to begin to do that. And practically, here’s what I would say, the older water, or let’s just say stress tired, which older implies time. So let’s throw that out the window. Let’s move it to stressed out, worn out wire that needs to go to the spa and have a spa day and get a massage and rest and go walk and forget about all these stressors of life. Human analogy, same thing for water.

And if you’re putting this stressed out water in your body and you have this stressed out pattern, the two synergize, they accept each other because they’re like and you get used to that. And so to make this change is not easy because it comes with a deeper understanding. It comes with the realization that you do have domain and responsibility over your own health. And this must be the foundation of health. Life minimize suffering, maximize it. If we really look at the correlation of water on this planet, what we are now pacified, juvenile water.

So let’s just start with distilled water. It’s kind of like nature, except now we bought it, it’s moved around in a plastic container and maybe it was born and condensed 90 days ago, six months ago, it’s been on a freighter coming across the world. We don’t know. It’s just been through a lot already as a youth and we didn’t give birth to it and we didn’t have control over what it’s been exposed to. And it’s pretty aggressive. It wants to learn something useful, it wants to interact with life. So we revitalize it with the technology and that pacifies it to a degree, matures it. Speeds up time in its normal life cycle, which was actually slowed down from what it would have been in nature.

And all our things that we do simulate, like soil, like carbon and silicon and calcium, are the major elements we use. And we use really what you call high form. In other words, allotropes, which means like a diamond and coal and water can be like that. The old tired water would be like coal and the mature water would be like a diamond. And the maturing of water would be like, say, graphite, which is somewhere in the middle of coal, graphite, diamond as far as quality. And the upper end of graphite would be bucky balls. So we use shungite flow forms which have a bucky ball quality to them and all the trace minerals from the north pole of the earth. So there’s a design criteria.

And so basically the practical use is the pacified young water. Distilled water can be used in water protocols on a regular basis to flush the body during detoxes much more effectively than if we used a mature water with a reasonable amount of mineral in it, which is another qualification for mature water. And tap water is probably at the lower end of that. It has a reasonable amount of mineral that once the water is transformed, the calciums, magnesiums, potassiums that are in the water, iron up to the heavier metals get in a form that the body recognizes and can use because they’re put there by the mold of the water.

Perhaps the most significant thing that what toxicity may be is the incorrect shape of something and everything is transformable into a useful form. That’s what nature does. When it takes something that is like toxic for us and delivers it to a plant and it’s food for the plant, it probably changes the form of that element. And water plays a big role in that. So you can alternately use young distilled water, empty of mineral, empty of experience, mature it, to help clean out the body better, and you develop your own relationship and protocols based on how you feel and your intuition to do that.

There are like health regimen protocols where every half hour you drink 4oz of distilled water, then you drink mineralized water, and the other half hour you do that for 8 hours a day and you drink 32oz a day. You light, exercise, walk, and that seems to be the number one way to heal, is a foundational piece of healing, then comes your diet. And people actually heal better when they fast, walk, mineralize. And some people use a little honey for a little calorie or a little cayenne pepper, whatever. All these different methods of water fasting with light exercise that people rave about is the only way that really got their body healthy. And then the mineral water being the mature, which is your daily drinking water, and you can adjust the mineral strength and there’s no way to calculate.

People always ask me, well, how much mineral do I put in it? And I’m kind of like, start here, but sometimes you’ll need less, sometimes you’ll need more. You will be able to talk to your body in ways you’ve never been able to once you start to work with water and use the mature form that can communicate, whereas the young form just don’t want to communicate that much. It just wants to do like a child playing. And it becomes more articulate and communicates better with age as it matures. So we’re kind of using the technologies in the home to simulate what nature does to get these waters.

Basically the number one thing, in my opinion, if I had to sum it up, is the increased consciousness that comes from the water is what really starts to propel you for a deeper journey in your own soul evolution, and that you feed that off to other people like you’re radiating that right. And so sudden changes are difficult. So you kind of got to work with it gradual and use your intuition and experience and go, this is when I feel better. But those two tools are definitely effective. Young water that’s been matured, which will not be as mature as the mineral water, say, that comes from the tap or it comes from some other mineral water source.

So foundational tool for all health, alternate between young water and older water that’s been revitalized, that’s mature, and try and do whatever you can. And there’s a million ways to do it. I don’t just talk about our technology and how we do it. There’s a lot of ways to do it, so I’ll stop there. That was quite a complete circle of the lifecycle of it, what we had to do to really explain it.

Katie: Yeah, and I definitely want to circle back and talk more about the specifics. But you also mentioned that you used to work with nuclear power. So I’m also really curious to hear your story and how you went from that to now working with water. And we’re going to talk more about all of the work you do too, because I think it’s amazing, some of the things you’re doing in the world.

Jonathan: Oh, I appreciate that. I guess nuclear power was, so I grew up with a mom and a dad who were very well read. And my mom was a computer teacher back in the 70s when it was punch cards. Her brother was big in IBM, so he fed her information way ahead of time about computers. My dad was a chemist, and he was an engineering contractor developer for big industry. So I grew up around big stuff. Like, people have no idea how few, like all the metal we have in our cars and buildings and tools. There’s very few places that make that stuff across the nation. So they’re just gigantic, like machines, like big monsters churning out this stuff.

And at a very young age, I asked a lot of questions, and I wanted to know how the universe worked. That’s really all I was interested in is how does the universe work? What’s a chemical, what’s an atom, what’s a subatomic particle, what’s a quark? I just kept going and going and going. And so I got to that point with computers and what I would call unified physics. I was reading unified physics. I didn’t like Einstein’s theory of relativity at all because it’s just a theory and it’s just relativity, which we all know everything’s about relationship. So it was kind of like a redundant joke that has violations in the root equation that anybody, like a 14 year old who understood simple math could see.

So I just had this desire that I’m missing pieces of what I need to know for whatever my journey is about understanding how the universe works. And so I read everything I could read about no physics and string theory, and they would all start out okay, and then the author and the doctor, they’re getting paid to be academic, so they got to really articulate this story, and it’s just a story at that point. And they would all fall apart from me as overcomplicating stories created by an individual trying to reinforce their level of knowledge.

And I was super natural into the military, so I just always studied fighter planes and aircraft carriers and stuff. I just studied all the so called weaponry, but I wasn’t interested at all from a point of destruction. I was interested from a point of how do they get this stuff to work? They’re motivated out of fear, trying to defend themselves. So they attack everybody all the time, which is understandable in a lower human consciousness or a less developed I guess I shouldn’t say lower.

And so I did the nuclear power simply because I realized if you read books and don’t apply it, and even when you do read books and apply it, what’s said in the book is never how it worked for me, and it’s never how it worked for anybody. So whether you’re racing cars or building machines or mowing somebody’s lawn, maintaining your lawn mower, the book is missing, like, at least half of what you need to know to really get this system to work right. And so the military’s operation, right? So I knew the military would take the science and apply it so we could see how it behaved in the real world, at least to some deeper degree than I’m getting from this idea of purely academic study.

And in that process, I was mechanical engineering designated, which means at that level your study is of fluid flow. It’s not whether a lever that’s like remedial, like 101 you pull on the lever. This is how a lever works, this is how gears work, this is how a valve works, this is how a pump works. That’s remedial stuff. Where it gets complicated is phase change, fluid dynamics. And I’m making an argument now scientifically, based on the evidence that all four phases of matter are always present in water where science acts like it’s some kind of crazy anomaly now.

So that was my interest and I definitely got the best education tenfold of what I got out of college or normal teaching because it was all applied. And you could test and check certain things to find out whether these theories applied in the real world. And what you would see is in normal conditions, these theories and this science is correct. But when we go into transition, they’re far from correct. And what life is, is constant transition. And a lot of what our current engineering and development is based on is fixing everything and holding it in place like it wants to wrestle. And we’re just putting 1000 tons on top of something that wants to wrestle its way out of it. And we keep adding more and more constraints when in fact, that’s not really reflecting the terrain of life, how the Earth works, how nature works. So the nuclear power bit was a way to understand at a deeper level the micro, right?

Instead of going out towards astrophysicist type stuff, I kind of went down inward. That’s my tendency, is to dive inward and look at the little pieces and figure out how they go together to construct where we’re at. And now I find myself studying more like astrophysicist type unified modeling. And I know my places to do that because instead of just reading books, I went and met these people and talked to them. And that’s what life’s about, is getting out of the exercise room and taking a walk in nature in addition to the exercising room. Or it’s looking out there and looking inward and learning how to breed that back and forth.

And I believe that’s the development of our consciousness and water plays a huge role in that. Water, by the way, I’ll throw in a few tidbits that I learned in my educational process is water is the number one wide band nuclear remediation method one and in certain types of what we would call inherently safe reactors. In quotes, water’s power. This has blew me away early on. The power of a nuclear reactor in a well designed nuclear reactor, I’ll put it that way, is regulated purely by water, not by the rods going up and down like everybody thinks – the power is regulated by water. The colder the water gets, the more powerful the reactor gets. The warmer the water gets, the less powerful the reactor gets. If there’s no water present, the reactor shuts itself down. Kind of a great analogy for the human body or any living thing too, if you think about it, when you really look at that.

So what water is the most powerful for us? 39 degree fahrenheit water coming out of the mountain spring. Can we simulate that? Well, of course. Set your fridge at 39, incubate the water in there for a day and let it go through a day cycle and harmonize with the Earth’s natural rotational cycle. And now you have a much better brood water than you did if you just drank it right away, even if it was revitalized. You or I or anybody. I believe if they follow their passion, can learn about how the universe works inside of their passion, meaning they don’t have to pay too much attention to the outer world and they can pick up all the principles that the universe has to offer.

Kind of like when they say the Bible can be read and understood by anyone. Well, they may not mean the Bible, they may mean applying these principles in your life, whether it’s learning about health and doing podcasts and sharing it with other people. The universal perspective comes to you when you’re following your passion. When you’re doing things out of safety, things tend to get dull and you die off. You lose your passion, you get unhealthy, and none of this stuff can help. Water in that case, in my opinion, does help because it’s the one thing you will always do. And if you can do it to a greater degree, you’ll realize your feeling of your core soul and what the journey it’s supposed to go on, to learn what it needs to learn, because I don’t believe you can change that. Whatever that soul, individual person’s journey is, they’re going to get their lessons. You don’t have to suffer so bad to get a lesson. But if you’re not moving toward your lessons, then suffering is what moves you towards it and the universe and your relationship with it, it doesn’t care when it happens. It’s not in a hurry like we are. And often when we’re in a hurry, we screw that whole journey up.

And so sometimes you can just go for a walk, help structure the water in your body on your own a little bit more, drink water before and after you do that, and things will come to you in that walk that are very clear about life choices, that minimize suffering and increase choice. So that’s how something nasty and lethal like nuclear power can kind of give you these AHA moments that change the course of your life. And when I look at my journey with water, it took like six or seven knocks on the head before I was like, oh yeah, I know what I’m doing with my life now. It’s water.

There’s no way I would have been given these gifts of deep understanding of water. So deep that I’m having trouble sharing them. Right. I came out of the box and talk about sudden change and I had proof in my laboratory in the way I understood it so I could go from this side of the coin to that side of the coin, which was shocking to people in 2.3 seconds. And I realized what I was doing was unhealthy. I was like blowing people’s minds, showing them things about water and physics, concepts that they never understood, that caused their mind to glitch because they’re like, I’m working in this world. How would I start to work with that?

Like our whole terrain isn’t interested in taking care of the Earth or doing things cleaner or talking about transformation and how we’re not in as bad of a pickle as it seems with our own bodies on the inside or with the whole Earth. If we do the hard change, the longer we delay that, the harder and harder that change is going to be. Almost to the point where now we need these technologies almost not to just change without to change and minimize that suffering. There’s going to be suffering in this change.

You want to minimize it at this point, accept it and minimize it and then work your way towards joy, however that may be. And I would guess you have to participate in the outer manifest in the world. Somehow you see a movement going on there. There’s more and more interest in hearing what you’re talking about, what I’m talking about and seeing how they synergize.

Katie: I love that we got to go deeper than I expected and that was a fascinating explanation and one that I have not heard explained that well by anyone.

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And I want to make sure we also touch on the practical just a little bit because in my house I have a whole house water filter but then I have an additional system from you guys that is meant to revitalize the water. And I think people might not even be familiar with this technology. We’ve touched on it, we’ve touched on the reasons for it. But can you explain what is happening in that system in my house and what it’s doing to the water?

Jonathan: Sure. I’ll start with the nature and I referenced it before about the straight pipes versus how water flows in nature and when it flows most vigorously in the left, right and tumble pattern is in the mid mountain stream where it has the most balance of minerals and history or an inertia of flow. Right. Another thing is important to recognize that if I drop a pedal, even in a river, the whole river knows that that pebble got dropped in there because there’s a solid.

If you impact on water with an impulse for a tiny, tiny moment beyond our perception and into our perception when we measure this. And this is what I would drop a pebble in the form of 1000 volts spike in the water, right? Just a different way of doing it. And I would do a real hard 1000 volts is a pretty big pebble but like a big rock to the ocean is small, right? But there’s this impulse of pressure and I would observe what the water would do in reflection to that impulse. And it was a mirror image but it wasn’t symmetrical, meaning it did the opposite.

So like, you have a mirror. So let’s use the human analogy. It’s a simulation, but it’s the opposite. You can kind of tell when you’re cutting your hair in the mirror when you hold the scissors that your body’s watching the mirror. And the signals are backwards sometimes, right? So you have to kind of realize this reflective side of it. And so what we’re doing basically is picking the part of the river where we can sense through science and observation both, let’s just say scientifically repeatable and observational more intuitive. Like as a fisherman standing on the water all day, you start to see little things.

I was a fishing guide out west and got to experience these where I could drink right out of that water and you could tell that water was alive and vigorous and good for you. And I remember filling up canteens like when I would go down to the river so I could take it back with me because that water was special and it was not easy to get to, so on and so forth. So that’s what we’re trying to simulate. And the longer you do that for, the more you get. But more is not always better.

So over the years we try to find the right length for your average American home size, average family that really answered the average water which would be like tap water. So what are they not doing back at the plant? And along the way that simulates nature and how do we intensify this coming into the home? And it in fact changes the water behavior. Probably nowhere near as good in the total sense of what a mountain stream does. But sometimes we can get more energy out of it than nature would have and that’s not always good.

So we had to work 13 years we’ve worked on finding this balance point and I believe that goes up with the human race as it becomes more of a collective understanding. So the more we understand the higher level or broader level of awareness with the water the broader level of knowledge and intuition and emotional stability it reflects back to us.

And so one is the flow mechanic, Viktor Schauberger. One of the greatest observational studies of water is who I study. In my opinion there’s nobody close to him as far as the crossing the bridge between nature and the mystery and science and how the universe works. It sounds like foreign language when you first read it because we’re programmed backwards. He basically said implosion we don’t use. And ironically enough, in all my studies I was always interested in the vacuum or bringing things, pulling things together, not the force of pushing things along.

And I’ll use the analogy of what we do with the water as what convention tries to do to treat the water is take a string and push it. What we are always trying to do when we treat water is pull on the string until it straightens out. And what that means to me is the focus and the intention is all in aligned and it’s leading. The goal is leading, right? You’re pulling the string so the pull forces. Your fingers holding the string are leading the motion and then we can get behind it with the other hand and just lightly push. But if we ever push too hard, this thing crumples.

And so what you have in all of life is a pushing, pulling alteration that’s kind of led by pulling or self organization. So we’re self organizing the water through this vacuum principle and breathing the water as well as spinning it to the left and the right by winding it together. Most people are picturing a vortex as something like in a blender where we rotate it in one direction and that’s a monopole, what you would call a single direction. Whereas in nature both the left and the right turn and the river always occurring and there’s a point in the middle which the water winds together.

You can almost look at it as like a sexual analogy, like overlap and interconnection in a minor way that brings forth life in the water. Many philosophers in the past call it a sex universe of male female energies. And where they overlap is where the gateway of life force energy is increased and life comes about through that gateway. We’re doing that in a whole home unit 48 times simultaneously creating vacuum, creating pressure, creating slight higher magnitude of vacuum than the pressure because the pressure is just what we have. So when we pull negative, we’re way ahead of it and that helps everything pull on the string and fall in line because there’s room to fall in line. It’s very simple when you look at it. There’s room for everybody to walk through the door as long as we all don’t try and go at once and we get in line and flow, a big crowd can narrow down and flow through and that’s the same way a vacuum forms in nature or in mechanical engineering.

Second aspect is we try and amplify and simulate some of the stronger reactionary elements that the water flows through and over similar to the rocks. And we use slightly spherical shapes. It’s actually more like a walnut shape. So it encourages the water to fold inward. The walnuts go out on the walls, the flat, and that stops the water from trying to take its juvenile pathway, which is the line of least resistance, and just go around it without changing. And we encourage this water to tumble inward and wind around itself. And we do that with shungite, which is a form of carbon just like the Earth. So it represents the ground in many ways. And then it has bucky balls or fullerenes, which is they call C60.

And it has a natural version that’s made by Earth. It’s very rare. You can buy like, C60 supplements, but those are made in a laboratory. This is made up on the North Pole, north of Russia. So we have a very unique recipe of a type of grounding earth, maybe a futuristic type of carbon that we learn how to breed in the soil. When we get better with the soil, we might see more carbon 60 form. We do use North Pole aspects and paramagnetics. And this graphite with the bucky ball in it is what we would call paramagnetic, which means it’s attractive in its forces. So it’s the part of a magnet that would suck up another magnet, not the part of a magnet that would repel something else. And that’s what the Earth is. So we take paramagnet when we’re trying to make the soil alive again and grow better, we use living water, but we also try and accelerate the living soil. And we want to bring in natural forms of carbon. And we do that by sequestering air and having the bacteria do that for us. So in a way that is representing another big natural grounding point.

And then we use the next octave, which is silicon. And we use a very unique form of silicon crystal that’s from an ancient quartz from old seabeds, and it has like a DNA. So we only use one type. A lot of people will hear me talk and then they’ll get into this business. They’ll go, okay, we’re going to use carbon and silicon because we’re going to copy what they’re doing because we know it works. And it’s like we’re very high quality control with the signature type and method and we’re using of all forms and then we’re using about every trace element that exists that is also found in the shungite. We don’t remove that. And so that kind of brings us like our maturity level, where we have this full bandwidth mineral that the water can read during these 48 flow over and simultaneous double vortexes. And that’s how it works. That’s as simple as it is.

And once this happens, it stays in the water for a while. But all the same things that degraded the water before will degrade the water again, but the water will have more resistance to it. So if we flow for 300ft down a straight pipe, we might retain 95% of the holistic water improvement that we’ve achieved. If we go 1000ft, it might be down to 60%. If we go a mile, it might be down to 15 or 20%. Energetically of what it was before.

Some of the physical things are fairly permanent and take much longer to get rid of some of the physical changes that happen within the water, to the elements and so on and so forth. So in a nutshell, those are the attributes, whether we’re using magnets, dielectrics, gold, ormus all these different materials we could use to influence the water. In the end, we’re just completely simulating what a river does and this inertia that’s in the water lasts and makes it to your drinking faucet.

And what we found, we always told people in the past, and we didn’t do filters in the past. So 13 years ago, up until about 2010 to 2015, 2016, we just stayed out of the filter business. Then I realized people couldn’t get over the material side. And there are filters that improve things on this hand, but take away on that hand and there are filters that are just bad, period. Don’t ever use them, no matter what, because they just start leaching out concentrated toxins. Like everything breathes, right? So a filter breathes, it might breathe once a day where it pukes up a bunch of toxins, and then we happen to drink those at sunset. And then we start to get headaches or start to and now we’re bald up in this whole journey of low quality filtration.

And we try and fix that by saying put the unit after that’ll, minimize the negative effects of the filters. And then we started studying pressed carbon block filters, which I was like, okay, that’s a higher form of carbon. It’s graphite. It’s being made similar to a diamond. Exception to the rule, extreme pressures for a long time, like I’ve said, cause things to aggressively rebound against them. So diamonds are formed under extreme pressure. That’s how these filters are made.

And what it does is the carbon rebuttals with an increase in its structure to resist the pressure. In other words, like, if you do try and beat something up for long enough in nature, it will evolve suddenly into something that’s way stronger. Which is something we should think about when we’re working with pathogens, is that if we attack them too hard, they’re going to evolve to a more efficient form. And then we’ll just have to learn how to attack them better again. And we need to stop that life cycle and learn how to work with them. And the same thing, human to human, we need to stop, like, physically fighting and stop creating this over material world and look at these energetic principles.

And the beautiful reward when you do this stuff is a filter will always fill up, needs thrown out and replaced, ends up in the landfill, reloops the thing. And I’m not saying that we’re around that completely, yet we’re not. But the high quality filter could be put after and not degrade the water. So we started selling those filters and allowing them to go after our units as an overall water quality program. It kind of worked out that way in our whole home solutions, where your drinking water is filtered after it’s structured, the quality maintains in the ways we measure it in the lab, with crystallography and UV spectroscopy, the water still got good quality. And the way the carbon block filter works, the pressed carbon block is it kind of spreads things out as much as possible. So if it’s like the only filter, in my opinion, that copies how nature does things, and that’s kind of the total journey compromise we came up with at this point.

And there are other filtration forms that are okay, we can’t afford to test them all. But the one to avoid is the charcoal carbon, because that’s a burn process, a destruction process that carries an inertia. And that manufacturer process is not as well controlled as they sell to everybody in the filter world. So that’s the one I would avoid and the one in history I’ve always had to remove out of any system after a couple of weeks for loss of water quality, even when we structure afterwards.

So that’s the practical is copy that river, use the highest quality elements as possible. And that’s like part of the consciousness, right? When you use Shungite and you look at the history of Shungite and water, you’re kind of saying, like, I realize that water musically responds to carbon six hydrogens. The hexagon makes carbon if we get atomic with it. And that’s just like a simple thing. It’s a tool, it’s an intuition, it’s a consciousness. And going down that journey and finding out for yourself is what you have to do to see what’s right.

And the good thing is there’s all sorts of different ways to program water to influence so you can find what crystal you like and place that underneath the water. And typically the point is what brings life forward and the dull end or the South Pole from a magnetic perspective is what slows life down. And sometimes you need to slow down. So learning how to use these tools is important.

And we pick a balance point with ours because the study of when to use the North Pole and the South Pole, when to use what crystals, and whether to use the point or the blunt end is beyond what we do. And we do touch on that in some of our webinars. And we do a lot of educational stuff with life force energy and intuition and the science underneath it. So we set that foundation and move it forward. So that brings us full circle on the design basis and what we do and why we do it and how it’s beneficial for the home.

Katie: And I will make sure that’s linked in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm and I could certainly talk to you all day. I feel like there’s still so much more to learn, but this has been absolutely fascinating and a springboard for a lot more research for me as well. I’m really excited to keep learning. The last couple of questions I love to ask at the end of interviews, the first being if there is a book or number of books that have profoundly impacted your life and if so, what they are and why.

Jonathan: If I had to go with a single book, I would say White Fang. Jack London, that’s my favorite, like deep connecting book. Maybe Peaceful Warrior number two. I forget the author of that one. There’s a movie on it too, kind of a B movie that’s real good. Kind of simple things that I felt like I knew in my heart but I was being taught to work away from and regrounded me into my heart position of no matter how messed up or confused my mind gets, or no matter how difficult life gets, I’m just going to go back to those books. Maybe number three. The greatest Salesman in the World. Aug Mandino. They’re certainly like kind of cheesy life self help books, but they’re just so simple and reground me that I find myself that every ten years I’ll go back to one of those and read it.

And it’s kind of weird because like Jack London and then off to self help books. Augmentino. Greatest salesman in the world or something like that. And then Peaceful Warrior one, two, three on the single books. And then scientifically, probably Paul Levillette’s whole set. And he’s the greatest unified model business ever recorded on history. He died last December. So I just went and bought his whole book set and I read him out of order back about for five years, about ten years ago. And then I kind of put them down and I just started rereading them and it’s just full bandwidth. About the riddle of the Sphinx. The true purpose of the Zodiac Foundational. I shouldn’t say true because some people use planetary stuff for self help, but this is like for collective human help.

What the purpose of the creation story is out of the Zodiac? What unites all religions, all past stories and then communication with stars. That there are stars called pulsars. So like back in history or back into the micro details and then way out into space, this unified thing and that the stars are blinking at a very super controlled rate, which they should not be. And there’s many of them like they discovered maybe like twelve at first in the 60s and 70s, now there’s like over 1000 or something that have been discovered and they all have a unique pulse beat, like a signature and what the purpose or information of that pulse beat may be.

And then the philosophy, all good unified philosophers like Walter Russell basically say that space and water are the same thing. One is just extremely dense and one is extremely etherical and that’s how the universe works. There’s way more space, but matter outweighs space because it’s there. So there’s the tendency of the universe, but there’s small amount of high density subjects and then just space forever. But you point a telescope in it or it’s just like a microscope because it’s far away. All that means is far away from our perception. And then you always see things manifest eventually under the microscope or the telescope if it can see far enough. So it’s the same thing. It’s just far away and out of our perception. But something always manifests if we look hard enough or long enough.

And I think that’s kind of the beautiful thing is that for reasons beyond our understanding, life manifests continually out of nothing and evaporates back into nothing. And that’s the true breathing cycle. And we can’t explain it articulately all the way, but it’s going on in your water molecules, it’s going on in your body, it’s going on in deep space, it’s going on deep within the Earth. And it’s comforting to kind of go, hey, everything’s breathing along. And if it can’t breathe right and it can’t get the right nutrients, it won’t develop. And every atom develops. A hydrogen atom develops into water someday, but it also can envelop and develop and evolve into other things besides water and its journey, right?

But water might be that ultimate journey for the birth of matter to become involved in, like the older soul, if you will, that has more experience and has learned more. So those books give that perspective for me and it’s the whole set. I couldn’t say it’s one, so hope that helps.

Katie: Yeah, I have quite the reading list now, I have not read some of those and I will include links to all of them in the show notes as well for you guys listening on the go. And lastly, any parting advice for the listeners that could be related to the topics we’ve talked about or entirely unrelated?

Jonathan: I would just say that the discipline in your head and in your heart of radiating what you truly would want to become, which is a difficult journey, is contagious and that’s a discipline we should all really work on. And water just seems like the easiest way to evolve in that even though you can’t explain what’s happening, it seems to set that evolution off.

And I know that’s what everybody wants, but it’s much harder to develop the discipline and the habit to do that. And the world is becoming much more challenging as we become aware. So everything has to progress together. If the world gets more difficult, the potential is higher to achieve more synergistic and harmonious things. And that gateway to do that with your soul in the universe seems to be water the most. And that’s the best advice I could give is one simple thing you can do. Drink water and walk and learn how to build a relationship and improve your water and walk more often and let your mind wash out. And that’s going to be the best way for most people, I think, on the average. Not for everybody, but kind of the best average for everybody to work with when they need a simple grounding in life and perspective.

Katie: Awesome. Well, this has been such a fun conversation. I’m so, so grateful for your time. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing today.

Jonathan: Yes, thank you very much. I enjoyed it and I’m happy to become simpler about it in the future and shorter, but I try and be very thorough with the foundation and really get a deeper understanding in the beginning because those who do take interest can actually use that for their benefit. So apologize about the length of some of my answers, but I try and make them as short as possible while not leaving things out.

Katie: Well, I appreciate it. And thanks to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama Podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.