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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com, and I’m back today with Kashif Khan to talk about what biohackers get wrong, how to actually slow aging in a way that we can measure, and decoding our own DNA. And if you missed our first episode together, I highly recommend it. But Kashif Khan is the bestselling author of a book called The DNA Way. He works with celebrities on longevity coaching, and he’s the founder of The DNA Company. He’s also a two times TEDx speaker and a pioneer in the functional approach to genomic interpretation and overlaying our environment, nutrition, and lifestyle on our genetic blueprint to create personalized longevity plans that take into account the unique owner’s manual for our own bodies.
And in this episode, he goes deep on why he doesn’t like the word biohacking and what they get wrong about health and longevity and the new model of aging. We talk about inflammation and aging being connected, the foundational things that can help all humans build based on understanding their own genetics. How he starts with the mind and executive function when it comes to a lot of these changes. What the epigenetic imprint of trauma is and why this is important, and the science of how some of these things affect us even at a gene level. We talk about the importance of sunlight and the cascade of light for things far beyond vitamin D and so much more. And he does this on a one-on-one basis, and he’s going to do a special group just for people listening. If you have a desire to go deep on your own genes and learn alongside me, you can find out more about that in the show notes at wellnessmama.com, but let’s join Kash. Welcome back. Thanks for being here again.
Kashif: It’s awesome to be here again. Let’s do it.
Katie: If you guys missed it, our first episode was phenomenal. You really went deep on everything related to genetics, hormones, lifestyle, how all of those things interplay and how to actually get personalized answers that are from your genetics, not from general information. And in this one, I would love to step onto a few soapboxes that I enjoy stepping onto. And I’m guessing you have additional insight on and delve into some of the things biohackers get wrong, talk about aging a little bit and go even deeper on decoding our own DNA.
So to start off broad, I would love for you to sort of dismantle and talk a little bit about biohacking, which I’ll admit, I don’t like that word to begin with, because to me, hacking has a negative connotation and I don’t want to hack my body. I actually want to work with it and find alignment and find out what it optimally needs. But I know that’s a broad topic, but can you tackle what do biohackers get wrong? And we’ll go in a lot of directions from there.
Kashif: So that word, it’s funny that you bring that up. That word actually came from Dave Asprey because he was a hacker. He was a software engineer and a hacker. And then he started hacking his own biology. He said, I’m now a biohacker. And that’s, you know, he calls himself the grandfather of that industry. So, yeah, what we’re seeing is that there’s this wave of people that are disappointed by our healthcare model and have the motivation and means to take charge and do it themselves. And the other wave we’re seeing is we now have access to the technology to actually do it ourselves. So both things are happening at the same time.
And all of a sudden, there’s a completely different view on health. We also went through a phenomenon called COVID the last few years, that completely changed and opened our eyes to how fragile we are. And some of us were teetering on the edge of poor health and didn’t know it. Some of us were very resilient and other people wanted to know how we got there. So world change, eyes open, technology is available, and people are disappointed with the symptom-masking healthcare model, which when we say healthcare system, it’s neither healthy or caring or system. It’s like I will figure out as a sort of hospital what I can bill for. That’s the model, right? We do a really good job in acute care, but that same toolkit is applied to chronic disease, which is not the way you deal with chronic disease. It’s developed and caused. It’s not something you respond to. It’s something you prevent.
Katie: That makes sense. And in the first episode, we touched a little bit on how with all the personal care products that women use, the number of chemicals that we’re exposed to. I’ve said before, we have a lot more inputs that our body now has to deal with than we did throughout most of human history. And those things exist. They are in our environment, but I feel like the stuff that you do, it really helps us delve into, okay, realizing we’re going to face all of these new inputs, how can we work with our biology to still adapt to handle those and to thrive even with the changes of our environment and our modern lifestyle? And I think this equation, we talked about inflammation in the first episode, and I know that is implicated in aging as well, but we didn’t get to go deep on the topic of aging. So can you tie in how aging relates to this and how having a deeper understanding of these things and how to work with them could actually help with the aging process as well?
Kashif: So the actual literal act of aging is a major proponent of it is your DNA getting damaged. So you look at the cells, a ball, a bunch of things wrapped up, including your DNA, and the DNA gets oxidized, damaged. The cell starts to literally unravel to some degree. And you see the outward evidence of that. You see a little bit of white hair. You see a little bit of wrinkled skin. And the body manifests what’s happening on the inside.
So we now know that the threats that we experience today are accelerating that to some degree. So we’re living longer, but we’re not necessarily living healthy. In fact, the average American gets their first chronic disease by 55. They have two by 65. And they spend the last 15 years of their life in treatment. That’s the new American reality. 66% of American personal bankruptcies are due to healthcare costs. So it’s like you work your whole life to save up to pay to try and stay alive, and it doesn’t work.
So inflammation, like you said, and autoimmunity now are the two big drivers of why we don’t feel well. Where does inflammation come from? In ourselves, there’s various processes that are meant to support the removal of inflammatory insults like your glutathione pathway, your antioxidant pathway, methylation that methylates things and makes them water-soluble so you can pee them out. There are certain things going on inside. But our DNA hasn’t changed in a quarter million years. So all of these defenses we have are designed for a very different context. Once in a while, I ate a poisonous plant. Once in a while, I breathed in something that I wasn’t supposed to. Not a chronic, everyday induction of nonsense, like all day long, from morning to night, right? On top of that, the stress, on top of that, bad sleep, on top of that, we’re not sleeping on the ground and getting grounded. Over and over and over again, there’s layers you can talk about.
So we see when we’re working on people genetically that step one, the genes allow us to prioritize where to focus. But everybody, everybody needs to focus on inflammation. Everybody. When the cell is not thriving, the mitochondria is not functioning, it’s inflamed, that is where everything comes from, including this act of aging, right? So now the solution, it’s not the same solution for everybody. You need to look into the genes to understand what’s that hole in my boat that the water is flooding in that I need to plug. It’s not the same answer. So if you hyper-focus on that one thing, that one broken piece of biology in your body, it’s going to give you the most massive return. And then out of all this giant menu of biohacking products, you might only need one or two, as opposed to let me try everything. Right?
Katie: Absolutely. And I talk often because I’ve kind of had a learning curve of this as well. And being in the health and wellness world, it can be so enticing to want to get into the latest, like fancy biohack or the new supplement that everybody’s talking about. But what I’ve realized over the years is there is a time and a place for that. And I feel like genetics gives us the key of what is the time and what is the place for those things. But it seems like there also are really, truly core foundational things that make all of those also more effective and that we can all optimize. And I’ve learned, you know, science is continually reminding us of the things that probably humans knew intuitively throughout history about the importance of our light exposure and getting the right amount of light at the right time to send our body the right signals of getting sleep, of the basics like hydration and simply consuming enough nutrients in your food.
But you have a tremendous data set and you’ve done this study with thousands of people over a span of years. I’m curious what would be on that list for you? If there were sort of an 80-20 general human, how do you keep the animal alive and optimal list? Are there things that emerged from that data that we can all be aware of as foundational things before we start adding in the more nuanced and personalized aspects?
Kashif: Yeah. So this is interesting because I was not expecting this, right? I thought about the body like how I was taught to think about the body, that every problem is separate and siloed and you deal with them as separate and siloed and we need to figure out each problem. What I eventually realized is that we need to figure out foundational bad terrain, what gets the body into a shape that allows disease to settle in and then which disease is just a combination of where the inflammation is and what hardware genetically isn’t built properly, right? We can predict, is it going to be dementia? Is it going to be cardiovascular disease? Is it going to be diabetes based on these two components?
So I’ve now learned after like healing thousands of people, we’ve been through tens of thousands of people, that over and over and over again, we need to start with the mind, executive function. The body is very binary. You’re either in fight or flight or you’re in rest and recovery. There’s nothing in the middle. So if you are stuck in fight or flight, which so many of us are your body’s not going to heal. Keep throwing supplements in there, keep dumping up, you know, treatments, etc. There’s not much outcome. And then we often see, especially with women that are mature, let’s say 45 plus, that I have this pain and now it turned into this and now it turned into that. And it just, this cascade of continuous ongoing problems and I’m doing everything right. And the one thing they didn’t do is address their epigenetic imprint of trauma. Even though they don’t even know they have trauma.
And when I say trauma, it doesn’t mean, you know, the cliche of somebody hurt me and I remember, and I can’t talk to them again. It could be what you just went through with COVID, right? I wasn’t able to see my family for six months. That is a massive stressor that maybe caused trauma. And if that’s happening, there’s genetics. Here’s the genes you have. Those don’t really change. We haven’t seen evidence of human evolution. What we’ve seen is there’s different versions of the genes and we keep switching and passing them on, these two or three options, right? We haven’t seen them change, but we have seen change is the epigenome, which is how those genes express. They can slow down or speed up based on inputs. And one of the major inputs that changes us is trauma. Because again, our body thinks that we’re cave people, that that trauma we need to remember to never make that mistake again. A tribe attacked me. I ate something dangerous. I should never do that again. And some of us are very efficient. There’s genes around imprinting negative stimulus. And the efficiency by which we recall negative stimulus. And some people do that really well. And that’s the reason they’re not healing. Because every time they see an email from the doctor, every time they listen to a podcast, every time they walk down a certain street, it makes them feel that feeling again, and the body stays in fight or flight, and it just won’t heal. That’s number one.
Number two. Everybody needs some level of gut repair. You know, we haven’t dealt with somebody that has a chronic condition that didn’t need to unwind trauma or address stress, right? Second, we didn’t meet anyone that was able to get to a better outcome where their gut was part of the story, wasn’t part of the story. So now even that, what do you fix is different for different people based on the genome. Is it that there’s certain genes around enzyme activity that I don’t do well with? And so I’m not doing well with my vegan diet. You know, I don’t actually break down chickpeas and lentils and beans. So I’m not getting protein because of this gene. Is it that, like me, there’s a gene called GSTM1, which is a primary first line of defense to the gut. So when I eat something, and this is actually my story. I’m missing this gene. I don’t have it. It’s not even one version. I’m literally missing this gene. So when I eat food, the toxins, packaging, pesticides that come along with it, I cannot detoxify. So that causes major gut dysbiosis for me, inflammation, which leads to other bigger problems. So that may be your why. It could be the actual structure of the gut. It could be the microbiome. And so there’s genes that point to all of these things, and we know where to prioritize and what to fix.
Then we actually get to the problem at hand. If we’ve addressed your mind and got you into rest and recovery, if we’ve addressed the terrain where the gut is no longer signaling stress back up to the brain through the biggest nerve, the majority of the terrain is now ready to receive healing. Then we can use the genome to determine why did you get sick? These are the two things that keep you sick, that drag things along. But what was the root of the thing you’re dealing with? Or the thing we’re trying to prevent? What do we see coming in the future? Now that will work. Now the biohack will make you feel incredible. Some people take supplements like, whoa. And some people take supplements, I felt nothing. The train wasn’t ready to give you anything. But that’s the sequence we go through.
Katie: Yeah. And for people who haven’t heard, will you share a little bit more about your personal story? Because I’m curious, how did you overcome actually not having this gene to begin with? I’m assuming you’re not like having gut issues every time you eat now. So how did you overcome that?
Kashif: Yeah, so my, and this is why I got into, I actually don’t come from the industry. I got into it because I was sick. And most functional medicine stories are of that nature. It’s like, and the last episode you talked about, you know, you listen to a YouTube show or whatever, and it worked for them, but it may not work for you. That person, if you really ask their story, there’s 10 years of history of trial and error and failing and burning out and not doing well until they found that thing. And that thing changed her life. And that’s why they’re talking about it so much, right?
So my story was I had eczema to the point where I couldn’t open my left eye. It was literally sealed shut. And I had patches all over my skin. I had psoriasis to the point where if I were to if I create a fist like this, my knuckles will just crack open and bleed. I had migraines, very debilitating migraines. That was the worst part, right? I just couldn’t function, couldn’t work. I would have to just sleep through it. Depression, couldn’t get out of bed. And gut issues, right? Completely unpredictable, random gut issues. Never knew what the day was going to be like. I don’t have any of those things anymore.
And in fact, when I started this journey and I started to learn about functional health, I tested my biological age. I was 38 at the time and I was tested as 43. So that was the big eye opener that I’ve prematurely aged myself by five years because of all of what I’m dealing with, right? Then, I now am 44, biologically, age tested as 33. So not only did I stop the problem, not only did I fix what I did to myself, but I’d be able to reverse time to some degree and actually improve. Because my genome told me exactly what to do.
So, I learned that there were certain detox pathways that weren’t working. So there’s certain insults that I couldn’t handle. I learned that there were certain foods, for example, a big one for me. Hummus. I figured, let me eat a Mediterranean diet because that’s great stuff, right? And I was going to this restaurant regularly with my business partner and clients because it was clean Mediterranean food and seemingly clean. I didn’t know that in Canada, where I lived, that there’s a very particular chemical used on chickpeas to dry them faster to allow they yield the turnover quicker, which doesn’t really get removed. And for the most part, doesn’t cause a problem. I have zero gut detox. So for me, it was a major, major problem, right? That was one of the major drivers for me.
Secondary to that, there’s genes around airborne inhalation-based toxins. What do you breathe? I was working in the city downtown every day breathing in pollution like you couldn’t believe, like many New York, Toronto’s a mini-New York. And so with this not doing so well, it meant a lot more to me. I also found that downstairs in my building, my office building where I spent half my life, there was a manufacturing company putting toxic pollutants into the airways.
Now, where I had a suboptimal version of this gene, did not have this first line of defense to block, so it was getting into my bloodstream. My business partner had the great gut detox and the great glutathione activity in the lungs. So this didn’t matter to him. So I really believed that I had a problem. Because he didn’t have a problem. So it couldn’t have been the environment. It couldn’t be the food. It’s me. We are not wired the same. So same input, different outcome. So eventually I learned more, healed all these things. Got my arthritic mother, who was bedridden, out of the bed, going to the gym. Got my anxiety-induced niece from failing school to thriving straight-A student. Started to heal my friends and eventually said this is my legacy. I got to work on it. I handed my keys of my business to my business partner said, you keep it. I found what I got to work on and I haven’t looked back since.
Katie: I think you’re right. There is always that story with those of us in the health world of our personal journey and finding the things that worked. And I love that this seems to be a way for each of us to find that a shorter path than 10 years of experimentation to try to figure it out. But what really stood out to me too is that genes are not your destiny. Your DNA is not your destiny. And I think that’s an important thing to remember because I think when we first started encountering the human genome, we thought like, oh, your genetics are set. Therefore the results of that are also set. And I feel like what you’re explaining is that there’s a whole different world beyond that. And that actually, that’s just simply the, the information that lets you then change the outcome and change the story and change how you feel. That was a little bit of a deviation.
I would also love to talk about, in our first episode, you talked about vitamin D and how your niece especially had mutations on all of her vitamin D genes, and that was causing a big issue for her. And I loved any time I get a chance to talk about this topic, because one change we have seen on average in the human population in the last 100 years is a lot more time inside and a general recommendation to avoid the sun, to always wear sunscreen. I feel like we know vitamin D levels have declined, and the answer often given to people is simply to take vitamin D. But I’m curious what you’ve seen on the data side and when it comes to our genetics, because I had another podcast guest recently, Dr. Courtney Hunt, who referred to the light of the sun as kind of a symphony that communicates with our genes and with our DNA far beyond just the vitamin D equation. And I loved the way she explained that, but I’m curious what you’re seeing on the data side when it comes to not just vitamin D, but light exposure and time outside and the way that can influence our genes.
Kashif: Yeah, certainly. So the body is symbiotic with all of what we’re exposed to, not only the sun, but the earth, the air, the water, like everything. And we know, like, for example, that the morning sun and the evening sun has far more therapeutic red light than the daytime sun, right? And that part and parcel regulates your circadian rhythm and clock. So, I mean, people have heard this before. Sleep starts in the morning. You have to wake up and structure your day properly and get sunlight. Why? Because that morning sun tells your body that the morning is happening and then the shift to a very different light spectrum in the afternoon also signals to your body that the day has continued and the shift back to the red-light frequency in the evening, again signals to your body that the day has continued, and your body knows what time it is. And it can then function properly, and that certain hormones are produced at certain times. For example, men peak out their testosterone quite early in the morning, and then there’s a second production of hormones in the evening. These things don’t happen effectively if your body doesn’t know what time it is. The nutrient value we try and mask things with supplements. And in today’s reality, you almost have to because the food doesn’t give you the nutrition you need. We are indoors most of the time, so you don’t get the sunlight you need. We don’t all live in the sun. I have a pretty long winter where I live here in Toronto, so I don’t get a lot of sun, some parts of the, sometimes of the year.
So supplementing becomes important, but unique to your context. Just because somebody takes 15,000 IU of vitamin D doesn’t mean that’s what you need. And to your point about the cascade. How many times have I heard from someone that I tested my vitamin D levels and they’re fine. My doctor said they’re actually high, right? I say, well, you have all the symptoms of suboptimal vitamin D. So what’s going on? You might have it up in the blood, which is all the doctor can see, but there’s genes that take that and put it into the cells, and you’re not doing well there, which is why your level is high. It’s not because you have more than enough vitamin D. It’s because you’re not using it. It’s just parked and sitting there, and eventually it gets stored in your fat because it’s a fat-soluble nutrient.
So getting precise on biology first. What does the body actually do? How does the system work? Then reverse engineering what gene instructs each step of that cascade. Then identifying which one of those genes am I not doing well. I now know which part I need to intervene. Do I need more vitamin D? Do I need more frequency, like multiple times a day? Or am I doing all that well, and maybe I just need more fat or magnesium to metabolize it better? Every single one of the enzymes you need for vitamin D are found in magnesium. So you put them together, and all of a sudden there’s more on the cell. So just getting precise around and removing the thing you said, removing the trial and error. Removing the hundreds of hours of podcasts that by that one thing that maybe we’ll get to the answer. We can just get the answer up front because we know how the body works.
Katie: Yeah, I feel like it’s like a shortcut to the things that took me literally decades to figure out. And I think it also speaks to the availability of this information and sort of like rethinking what does it mean to be healthy today in the modern world? Are there any other categories that show up often when it comes to the genetic testing and having people understand this that you feel like are worth speaking to in this episode?
Kashif: Yeah, I think the primary concern that we hear from people is I don’t want to know if I’m getting Alzheimer’s. I don’t want to know if I’m getting cancer. I don’t want to know if I’m getting cardiovascular disease. There’s this belief that it’s a prescription, that the thing you said earlier, that your DNA is prescribing and causing this thing. So if I take dementia, for example. It’s much more of a relief than it is a threat. It’s not anxiety-inducing, it’s anxiety-removing.
So some people saw this show, Limitless, like Chris Hemsworth had, I think on Netflix. And one of the episodes, Peter Attia told him, your DNA says you have an elevated risk of dementia. And the conversation kind of ended there. And then the rest of the episode was Chris looking out into the sky, like, what about my grandchildren? Are they going to know my name? Am I going to know their name? Just thinking about what does it mean to live with dementia. So there’s a gene called APOE, which determines, it’s referred to as an Alzheimer’s gene. And if you have a certain version of it referred to as the 3-4, you have an 8 to 10 times elevated risk of dementia. If you have a 4-4, you have a 17 to 25 times elevated risk of dementia, right? There’s many people with 4-4 that never get dementia.
So what’s going on? What the question that should have been asked by Chris is what do I do? What action do I take? What does this gene do? So what this gene does, it’s responsible for the movement of lipids, cholesterol in your body. You know, you send lipids, you’re bringing them back. LDL, HDL, that whole cycle, right? If you don’t do an efficient job, then you’re more likely to leave some behind, which means the development of plaque. Why is a cholesterol going to a certain location in your body anyway? It’s a hormone that your body uses to fight inflammation. So whereas the disease-centric thinking of the amyloid plaque in the brain, which is a very early indicator and first step of cognitive decline, is very deeply connected to this gene because you don’t transport lipids properly. Disease-centric thinking, once you’re actually sick, right?
Functional thinking is, I just shouldn’t have inflammation in my brain. Because if there’s no inflammation, there’s no cholesterol. And I don’t need to worry about this buildup and block and hypercholesterolemia and amyloid plaque. Then this APOE gene is more a priority of working on brain inflammation. If you work on brain inflammation, there’s nothing to trigger the plaque. And the APOE doesn’t matter. So that’s how we think about genetics. It’s not gene equals problem, gene equals priority, because we can’t do everything. You can’t take every supplement, you can’t do every treatment, you can’t eat every food. Do the thing that’s going to give you the biggest return, and if this is it, APOE is pointing to that, focus on this. What do I do about not having neural inflammation? Is it my gut? Like, for example, me because I have this poor gut detox, I could very easily develop leaky gut, which leads to leaky brain, which leads to cognitive decline. That becomes my priority.
For other people, that inhalation-based threat, like I said, that’s actually a big majority of today’s dementia. Dr. Tom O’Bryan, who is part of the Institute for Functional Medicine, says that he believes north of 60% of today’s dementia is inhalation-based. It’s the chemicals we’re breathing that are causing brain inflammation. For some people, it’s metabolic. It’s their insulin dysfunction or the foods they’re eating that are misaligned to their genetic ability to process them. And so now you priority what’s going to cause the brain inflammation, your DNA will tell you. And then you work on that and just don’t have the brain inflammation. It’s a much more actionable way to look at your genome.
Katie: That’s so fascinating. And Dr. Tom is a friend of mine as well, and I’m glad that you brought up the inhalation side because I’ve had other guests and started doing a deep dive into that. And it makes sense when you think about it, we breathe so much more than we drink water or eat food. So that’s a constant input. It’s even happening when we’re sleeping. And so especially if someone has a predisposition to an issue there, it makes sense that would be a really big factor to get right. And one that we maybe don’t think about as much as we think about what we’re drinking or what we’re eating or what supplements we’re taking, even though it can be so much more important.
And I feel like as you were explaining this, it almost feels like people having the ability to get access to the owner’s manual for their body rather than a general encyclopedia of knowledge of the human body, but actually what is yours. What inputs is it asking for? How does it work? How do you support it? If something breaks, how do you fix it? And so I feel like this is a level of personalization that hasn’t existed before. And it’s to me really exciting. Can you speak a little bit about how you take people through this once they get their genetics, actually sort of take them, this problem-solving process and help them figure out how to best support their body?
Kashif: Yes, I think you nailed it. That’s exactly what it is. That’s literally what it is, that your genome is actually an instruction manual that each one of your 50 trillion cells has inside. And given what type of cell, it knows what page to read. The heart cell reads the heart section, the kidney cell reads the kidney section and so on. And it’s literally a set of instructions. And if there’s a spelling mistake, a paragraph missing, a page missing, the instruction is not the best. And all of a sudden the outcome changes. And this is all we’re saying. We know how to read the instruction manual to tell you, here’s the page that’s missing. That’s the thing you need to focus on because your body just doesn’t do that job properly. And that’s going to be a root of every future problem, right?
So what I have learned is that genetic testing is not the answer. Because a test means you got to report. And we thought that that’s what we needed to do, meaning the industry, because that’s what everybody else does. Here’s your cholesterol test. Here’s your hormone test. You then need to go take that to a clinician to interpret it. The challenge is there’s no clinicians that know how to interpret this stuff. So what I realized is that we have those insights. We have the data because I spent three years with 7,000 people studying them to learn what this stuff means and how to actually prescribe, like I just said about dementia, here’s a path for you. Potentially, here’s a path for me, my gut, right?
So we do things in the context of programs. I believe that this is something that everybody needs to do once as a deep education. Not just give me my report. It’s another thing to do. It’s another biohack. No, it’s I need to foundationally understand my unique biology so that every other thing I do, I do right. Imagine if you always made the right choice. If everything you did in the future, you always did exactly what your body needed and wanted. How good would you feel? How many years would you live? How free of disease would you be? Because it’s our choices that cause these things. We just don’t know what the right or wrong choice is.
So we do it in the context of programs. We’ll usually spend a month or two months with people. Sometimes we’ll do like a deep masterclass, deep dive. Somebody shows up with their DNA. And in fact, I think we’ve set up something like that for your listeners, where we’re going to set up a deep masterclass where people can show up with their DNA. We go over it, which usually is very expensive work. We’re going to do in a group setting so that people can attend, right? And at a sort of more reasonable cost, let’s say. And that allows us to have people not only get the information, here’s every red flag. Here’s every recommendation. But also get the education, which is I’m going to teach you how to use your genome so that first of all, you don’t need my help anymore. But second, every future decision you make is made correctly and properly. And you know exactly how to action whatever comes in your way.
Katie: That’s so exciting. And I’m actually looking forward to doing that as well. Even though I’ve done a pretty deep dive on genetics, I feel like there’s still pieces I’m trying to put together. And so I look forward to learning more. But for our time today, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation, hopefully opened a lot of new doors for people for learning about their own genetics, their own bodies, and how to live optimally. And I’m so grateful for your time and for everything you’ve shared today.
Kashif: No, it’s a pleasure. I’m honored to be here. Thank you.
Katie: And I will put links to everything we talked about in the show notes, including about that deep dive group. And you guys can find that all at wellnessmama.com. But for today, thank you so much for sharing your most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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